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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Strategy

Subject: The Arborec. Growing your force? rss

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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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I may be using this race at a guys weekend at the lake in June. Can I have some comments on how to use the build capacity of their troops?
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JH
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The way I read the rule, your production capacity in a system (not counting Space Docks and without your racial tech) should equal the number of GF you have there. They're each like mini Space Docks, but don't get the added production value of their planet's resources.

So if you control all three planets in the Rigel system, with 1 GF on each, if you activate the system you can build 3 units in it; if you had the racial tech you could build 6. There's no restriction mentioned on what kind of units you can build, so they can be anything from a GF to a War Sun. But in the example above you'd only be able to build one GF, PDS or Mechanized Unit per Rigle planet, just as Space Docks can only place ground units on the planet they inhabit. And I think the GF would cost 1 resource each, as well; you'd need more than one GF on a planet to get the 2-for-1 deal going.
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Scott Lewis
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Even with more thqan one GF on a planet, there's a strong argument that each GF would cost one. The question is whether you can pool the build capacity, or whether each GF is considered its own mini "dock". If the latter, each individual build capacity is 1 so each GF could only produce 1 unit (and the other GF in the 2-for1 purchase is lost).

No official word yet, but I think that is how it was meant to work based on the wording and their racial tech ability.
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Aneurin Kennerley
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I just always presumed all they could build via a GF was a GF. Then their racial tech allows them to build 2. So the race is similar to Sol... a GF based race.
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Andrew
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Twilight Geek wrote:
I just always presumed all they could build via a GF was a GF. Then their racial tech allows them to build 2. So the race is similar to Sol... a GF based race.


But there isn't anything anywhere that says that.
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Anthony
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I really dont' think building only ground forces would make sense. You would end up with a GF force that cant' build them normally, but must use a piece that hasn't moved, a command counter to activate the system and double the normal resources (1 build limit) to build it.

That kind of racial would be a limitation with no benefit. I think there is no question they can also build ships. I do agree that the real question is whether you can pool their build capacities when it comes to fighters and ground troops.

I am really hoping that the ruling is for pooling as I think this would create a slow starting race that if given some time could turn into one of the larger end game engines with unusually high build capacities I've shied away playing this until its ruled though.
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Andrew
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Yoren wrote:
I really dont' think building only ground forces would make sense. You would end up with a GF force that cant' build them normally, but must use a piece that hasn't moved, a command counter to activate the system and double the normal resources (1 build limit) to build it.

That kind of racial would be a limitation with no benefit. I think there is no question they can also build ships. I do agree that the real question is whether you can pool their build capacities when it comes to fighters and ground troops.

I am really hoping that the ruling is for pooling as I think this would create a slow starting race that if given some time could turn into one of the larger end game engines with unusually high build capacities I've shied away playing this until its ruled though.


Once you get their (good) racial tech, that's moot anyway.
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Anthony
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Agreed
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Brandon Tank
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Once you get their (good) racial tech, that's moot anyway.


True, but to me it seems silly to me that the Arborec's racial tech would only exist to fix a racial flaw, instead of providing some substantial advantage...but that's just me thinking out loud.

I'm not convinced that they can build ships with their ground forces. If they could, I would think that they wouldn't start with a space dock, but its hard to say.

Can they pool build capacity? I don't know, but if build capacity and production capacity are interchangeable terms, then they won't be able to.

I think most folks realize that we need an official ruling on this. The outcome will determine whether the Arborec are powerful or mediocre.
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Andrew
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btanke wrote:
Quote:
Once you get their (good) racial tech, that's moot anyway.


True, but to me it seems silly to me that the Arborec's racial tech would only exist to fix a racial flaw, instead of providing some substantial advantage...but that's just me thinking out loud.

I'm not convinced that they can build ships with their ground forces. If they could, I would think that they wouldn't start with a space dock, but its hard to say.

Can they pool build capacity? I don't know, but if build capacity and production capacity are interchangeable terms, then they won't be able to.

I think most folks realize that we need an official ruling on this. The outcome will determine whether the Arborec are powerful or mediocre.


An official ruling on what? Whether they can build ships with their Ground Forces? There is no indication that they cannot, and their Flagship also says "Build Capacity" on it. Would you also say that their Flagship can only build Ground Forces? If that is the case, why is its build capacity 5, instead of an even number?

The racial tech does provide a substantial advantage, in addition to letting you build Ground Forces at 2 for 1 instead of 1 for 1. It doubles their build capacity - that's awesome.

The reason they start with a space dock, and the reason space docks will still be at least somewhat useful for them, is that they cannot build units with their Ground Forces that have moved during the same activation. Thus, if they only started with Ground Forces, they would have to choose between taking planets and building on the first turn (and on every turn until they chose to build more Ground Forces).
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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I think the ground forces can only pool if they are on the same planet as each other. For instance, if you had a triple system with one troop on each planet and you wanted to build more troops, it would cost you 3 to get 3. cry However, you have two on each? 3 gets you 6.

It seems thematically right... I think of the Arborec growing everything, troops, mechs. (Yes, even ships.) ALL biotech. Especially since your space docks can't build troops. Or is it possible your only smart economical option is to build mechs?

I'm also pretty sure that I can't build with them while they are loaded onto a carrier. The flagship Duha Menaimon's special ability is that it has a build capacity of 5. (If it hasn't moved.) Does not seem right that a carrier sitting in open space w/ 6 troops on it is better.

- Now that is ONLY if I have an empty carrier nearby to provide support for my new troops.

----

Honestly? Playing with and against these guys? My take?


OrangeCat's Rules


- Troops that have moved this activation cannot use their build capacity. (As written.)

- Troops aboard a ship cannot use their build capacity unless there is a ship with unused capacity, or a planet, in the same hex to accept them.

- Build Capacity pools with troops stationed on the same planet or ship. Making troops economical once you have two ground forces on a planet. Otherwise, troops for the Arborec would NEVER become economical.

- You can build troops or mechs. (Or a space dock over a planet. Techically, EVERYONE can do this last one.)

- You CANNOT build any other unit ship type with troops. Because, lets face it, why would you EVER build a space dock?!?! Also? I would be really, REALLY upset if I was playing against them and someone grew a fleet on the fringes of their space on my border.

- I WANT them to be able to grow fighters, but I think it's a stretch.
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Jeff S
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wardac wrote:
btanke wrote:
Quote:
Once you get their (good) racial tech, that's moot anyway.


True, but to me it seems silly to me that the Arborec's racial tech would only exist to fix a racial flaw, instead of providing some substantial advantage...but that's just me thinking out loud.

I'm not convinced that they can build ships with their ground forces. If they could, I would think that they wouldn't start with a space dock, but its hard to say.

Can they pool build capacity? I don't know, but if build capacity and production capacity are interchangeable terms, then they won't be able to.

I think most folks realize that we need an official ruling on this. The outcome will determine whether the Arborec are powerful or mediocre.


An official ruling on what? Whether they can build ships with their Ground Forces? There is no indication that they cannot, and their Flagship also says "Build Capacity" on it. Would you also say that their Flagship can only build Ground Forces? If that is the case, why is its build capacity 5, instead of an even number?

The racial tech does provide a substantial advantage, in addition to letting you build Ground Forces at 2 for 1 instead of 1 for 1. It doubles their build capacity - that's awesome.

The reason they start with a space dock, and the reason space docks will still be at least somewhat useful for them, is that they cannot build units with their Ground Forces that have moved during the same activation. Thus, if they only started with Ground Forces, they would have to choose between taking planets and building on the first turn (and on every turn until they chose to build more Ground Forces).


My thoughts as well - the only thing I'd think might need a ruling is if GFs built by the flagship need to be placed on a planet, choice of flagship or planet, or spread out to other carriers in the fleet. As well as if GFs can build while on a ship.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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wardac wrote:


An official ruling on what? Whether they can build ships with their Ground Forces? There is no indication that they cannot, and their Flagship also says "Build Capacity" on it. Would you also say that their Flagship can only build Ground Forces? If that is the case, why is its build capacity 5, instead of an even number?

The racial tech does provide a substantial advantage, in addition to letting you build Ground Forces at 2 for 1 instead of 1 for 1. It doubles their build capacity - that's awesome.

The reason they start with a space dock, and the reason space docks will still be at least somewhat useful for them, is that they cannot build units with their Ground Forces that have moved during the same activation. Thus, if they only started with Ground Forces, they would have to choose between taking planets and building on the first turn (and on every turn until they chose to build more Ground Forces).
I'm going to work now, I'll give you a serious read when I get back in 8 hours.

I LIKE this race, I like this expansion, but I'm not getting something.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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btanke wrote:

True, but to me it seems silly to me that the Arborec's racial tech would only exist to fix a racial flaw, instead of providing some substantial advantage...but that's just me thinking out loud.
You know... I think this is the first tech you should buy. Perhaps it DOES fix a flaw!
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Daniel Hammond
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OrangeCat X wrote:


- You can build troops or mechs. (Or a space dock over a planet. Techically, EVERYONE can do this last one.)

- You CANNOT build any other unit ship type with troops. Because, lets face it, why would you EVER build a space dock?!?! Also? I would be really, REALLY upset if I was playing against them and someone grew a fleet on the fringes of their space on my border.

- I WANT them to be able to grow fighters, but I think it's a stretch.


They have a build capacity, if it were restricted to not building ships that is something that absolutely is too important to have been left out of the rules.

You would still need a space dock if they couldn't pool their build capacities (which it doesn't say they can) or if for some reason they can pool their capacity you would still need it to build big ships without having stacks of otherwise unproductive GF's scattered all over.

Space dock on a resource 3 planet gives 5. (1 activation)
1 GF makes 1 GF.
2 GF make 2 GF.
Now on the 3rd activation you have a build cap of 4 (or more likely 4 caps of 1).

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Rob Poirier
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The reason they start with a space dock is because there are about a hundred different things that refer to space docks, specifically. Most importantly, the Production Strategy card. They are unable of taking advantage of the Production Strategy card and build with their GFs. There are also many ACs, PCs, POs, SOs, etc that refer to Space Docks specifically. That is why they start with a SD.

They can build ships with their production capacity. That is all there is too it. The fluff refers to them as a bio race, creating giant space-faring bio-ships. If they couldn't build ships with their GFs, they would be a terribly limited race. I have been unimpressed with them in the couple of games I have seen with them. Removing the ability to produce anything besides GFs with their GFs would make that racial ability a downright disability.
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Steve Fowler
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Need Space docks for sarween tools also. Losing that extra 1 to 3 TG worth of builds is not trivial.
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Greycloak
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Being unable to use production is hampering to be sure, especially if Warfare 1 is not in play.

Arborec
Round 1: Drop GF on planet (system activated, and cannot build during same activation)
Round 2: Activate system and build units from GF. System is activated, newly built units are locked down.
Round 3: Newly built units can now move.

Everyone Else
Round 1: Capture Planet.
Round 2: Build Space Dock.
Round 3: Build units.
Round 4: Newly built units can now move.

If the other races use Production they can get the new units out by Round 3 just like the Arborec, but they're still limited to only 3 SDs per game.
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Henry Coleman
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Acebob wrote:
They are unable of taking advantage of the Production Strategy card and build with their GFs.



I totally disagree that they can't use the production strategy card without a space dock present. Both the strategy card and the production step of a tactical action refer to space docks. The strategy card reads exactly like the production step of a tactical action and we are 100% sure that GF's can build during this.
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JH
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There is simply no indication anywhere that Arborec Ground Forces can only build GF.

sigmazero13 wrote:
No official word yet, but I think that is how it was meant to work based on the wording and their racial tech ability.

Where do you get this from the racial ability wording? It's very spare. I agree it needs a ruling, but I don't see a reason you can't pool GF building capacity on the same planet. If you had a Space Dock and 2 Arborec GF on a 2 resource planet, you'd be able to build 6 units total (without racial tech) on that planet. It seems nuts that you'd have to remember you're building all GF specifically with your Space Dock's capacity to maximize the 2-for-1 deal. It's counter-intuitive and overly fiddly.

(YES I AM AWARE THIS TERM CAN DESCRIBE THE WHOLE GAME)

Actually, here's a question I haven't seen addressed: Can Arborec GF build while being transported, or only on a planet? Because the rules don't say that, either, just that they can't build the same activation they move.
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Andrew
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
(YES I AM AWARE THIS TERM CAN DESCRIBE THE WHOLE GAME)


That pretty much sums it up.
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Greycloak
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Quote:
Can Arborec GF build while being transported, or only on a planet? Because the rules don't say that, either, just that they can't build the same activation they move.


It's interesting to note that both the flagship and the ground forces build capacity have the same restriction of being unable to build during the same activation sequence. However that is the only restriction that's listed.
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Scott Lewis
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
There is simply no indication anywhere that Arborec Ground Forces can only build GF.

sigmazero13 wrote:
No official word yet, but I think that is how it was meant to work based on the wording and their racial tech ability.

Where do you get this from the racial ability wording? It's very spare.

It is, but I think the whole reason it goes from 1 to 2 is to help counter the "hinderance" of building GF's by allowing you to build them without waste now.

I agree, it doesn't say that. It's the combination of the race ability and the racial tech that make me feel strongly that the Arborec treat each GF like a separate, mini-SD for production. Personally, I think the Arborec need that limitation to keep them in check. (I haven't played with them yet to know for sure, but that's just my gut feeling).

Either way, the Arborec have the ability to out-swarm even the Sol with Ground Forces.
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JH
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Either way, the Arborec have the ability to out-swarm even the Sol with Ground Forces.

This we can agree on. Only the plastic limit can slow them down.
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Christopher Halbower
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What plastic limit? Ground forces are infinite.
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