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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Strategy

Subject: The Arborec. Growing your force? rss

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Andrew
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halbower wrote:
What plastic limit? Ground forces are infinite.


The number of individual stacks of Ground Forces you can have is limited to the plastics provided. Each individual stack is not.
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JH
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Exactly. You can have as many GF as you can build, but only 12 separate "stacks" of them.
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Christopher Halbower
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Sarcasmorator wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Either way, the Arborec have the ability to out-swarm even the Sol with Ground Forces.

This we can agree on. Only the plastic limit can slow them down.



I guess I don't get how "the plastic limit can slow them down". There production isn't inhibited by the fact that they can only have 12 stacks of ground forces, is it?
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JH
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I guess I could have said it better — I only meant that they can only spread to so many planets at once regardless of how many GF they can pump out, just like any other race.
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Martin Larouche
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boxjuggler wrote:
Acebob wrote:
They are unable of taking advantage of the Production Strategy card and build with their GFs.



I totally disagree that they can't use the production strategy card without a space dock present. Both the strategy card and the production step of a tactical action refer to space docks. The strategy card reads exactly like the production step of a tactical action and we are 100% sure that GF's can build during this.


I don't agree. There are things you can build during the tactical action that you cannot with production, namely space docks themselves, space mines, refineries and colonies.

The production card specifically mentions production of units and only at space docks... the Arborec cannot escape that rule. It's definitely not the same as a regular "build".
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Henry Coleman
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deedob wrote:
boxjuggler wrote:
Acebob wrote:
They are unable of taking advantage of the Production Strategy card and build with their GFs.



I totally disagree that they can't use the production strategy card without a space dock present. Both the strategy card and the production step of a tactical action refer to space docks. The strategy card reads exactly like the production step of a tactical action and we are 100% sure that GF's can build during this.


I don't agree. There are things you can build during the tactical action that you cannot with production, namely space docks themselves, space mines, refineries and colonies.

The production card specifically mentions production of units and only at space docks... the Arborec cannot escape that rule. It's definitely not the same as a regular "build".


I disagree, but can understand your point of view. Their ground forces definitely need further clarification from FFG as to when they operate as space docks and when they don't.
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Andrew
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deedob wrote:
boxjuggler wrote:
Acebob wrote:
They are unable of taking advantage of the Production Strategy card and build with their GFs.



I totally disagree that they can't use the production strategy card without a space dock present. Both the strategy card and the production step of a tactical action refer to space docks. The strategy card reads exactly like the production step of a tactical action and we are 100% sure that GF's can build during this.


I don't agree. There are things you can build during the tactical action that you cannot with production, namely space docks themselves, space mines, refineries and colonies.

The production card specifically mentions production of units and only at space docks... the Arborec cannot escape that rule. It's definitely not the same as a regular "build".


He is referring to this segment from the "Produce Units" step of the Tactical Action in the original rulebook, pg. 12:

"As the final step of a Tactical Action, the active player may produce new units at one or more friendly Space Docks in the activated system."
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Patrick
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halbower wrote:
What plastic limit? Ground forces are infinite.

In one are true. But remember that there has to be a piece of plastic in each tile you want to have GF. So not technically infinite... just practically infinite.
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wardac wrote:
btanke wrote:
Quote:
Once you get their (good) racial tech, that's moot anyway.


True, but to me it seems silly to me that the Arborec's racial tech would only exist to fix a racial flaw, instead of providing some substantial advantage...but that's just me thinking out loud.

I'm not convinced that they can build ships with their ground forces. If they could, I would think that they wouldn't start with a space dock, but its hard to say.

Can they pool build capacity? I don't know, but if build capacity and production capacity are interchangeable terms, then they won't be able to.

I think most folks realize that we need an official ruling on this. The outcome will determine whether the Arborec are powerful or mediocre.


An official ruling on what? Whether they can build ships with their Ground Forces? There is no indication that they cannot, and their Flagship also says "Build Capacity" on it. Would you also say that their Flagship can only build Ground Forces? If that is the case, why is its build capacity 5, instead of an even number?

The racial tech does provide a substantial advantage, in addition to letting you build Ground Forces at 2 for 1 instead of 1 for 1. It doubles their build capacity - that's awesome.

The reason they start with a space dock, and the reason space docks will still be at least somewhat useful for them, is that they cannot build units with their Ground Forces that have moved during the same activation. Thus, if they only started with Ground Forces, they would have to choose between taking planets and building on the first turn (and on every turn until they chose to build more Ground Forces).


Agree 100% with this. It's how I see this playing out as well.
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Scott Lewis
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Personally, if it was intended that they could ONLY build GFs, it would have specifically said so.
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Brandon Tank
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Quote:
...if it was intended that they could ONLY build GFs, it would have specifically said so.


You guys have a point.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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btanke wrote:
Quote:
...if it was intended that they could ONLY build GFs, it would have specifically said so.
You guys have a point.
Yeah, I'm beginning to agree with you guys...

dlhammond wrote:
They have a build capacity, if it were restricted to not building ships that is something that absolutely is too important to have been left out of the rules.
...
Space dock on a resource 3 planet gives 5. (1 activation)
1 GF makes 1 GF.
2 GF make 2 GF.
Now on the 3rd activation you have a build cap of 4 (or more likely 4 caps of 1).
Correct. Their ability sounds gross, but it's actually pretty self restrictive.

Acebob wrote:
The reason they start with a space dock is because there are about a hundred different things that refer to space docks, specifically.

...

They can build ships with their production capacity. That is all there is too it. The fluff refers to them as a bio race, creating giant space-faring bio-ships. If they couldn't build ships with their GFs, they would be a terribly limited race.
A space dock is still a better/faster/cheaper way to build units, but Arborec ground forces grow their own support. A ground force and a Space Dock, however, are not interchangable.

Aaron Kurtz wrote:
Round 1: Drop GF on planet (system activated, and cannot build during same activation)
Round 2: Activate system and build units from GF. System is activated, newly built units are locked down.
Round 3: Newly built units can now move.
Oh, snap... Could you use warfare to speed this up if need be?

sigmazero13 wrote:
Personally, I think the Arborec need that limitation to keep them in check. (I haven't played with them yet to know for sure, but that's just my gut feeling).

Either way, the Arborec have the ability to out-swarm even the Sol with Ground Forces.
Only once they get the proper tech.

I would still like to know what Fantasy Flight thinks.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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OrangeCat's Arborec Reminders

- Arborec that have moved this activation cannot use their build capacity. This includes troops that have been moved in some form of transport. MOVED IS MOVED. However, if you can get that activation token off your hex (WARFARE) you could certainly activate the site again.

- Arborec ground forces may build ANY type of unit, however, they have a build capacity of 1 per unit, and this does NOT pool. It IS ALWAYS uneconomical to build fighter or ground forces with Arborec G.F.s, but this is offset by the Spore Acceleration tech. (This tech will make the Arborec ability BADASS. Bioplasmosis may help as well.)

- GFs aboard a ship cannot use their build capacity to build ground units, PDFs or fighters unless there is a ship/space dock with unused capacity, or a planet in the same hex to accept these units. Other types of ships may be built, however, but don't be surprised if a neighbor freaks out when you build a dreadnought on his border "out of nothing".
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Tomas Inguanzo
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One of the nicest benefits of GF based production is that it's so much easier to fortify your planets with PDSs. Each space dock can only build two at a time and must ship them out before it can build more. Arborecs can instantly put them almost anywhere and everywhere they're needed.
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Christopher Beck
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I'm not sure what the buzz is here, really. The Saar have movable Stardocks with a set production capacity that operates independently of planets (so they can produce in empty space if they want). While the Arborec seem very very powerful, like the Saar they can't produce when they move and they can't move after they produce (without using the Warfare strategy or some action cards). They will also always be limited by Command Tokens and Production points (like everyone else).

What I see is a race that is very good at defending its planets (although uneconomically) and has the same flexibility as the Saar (given they have to haul those GFs to a planet with a Carrier, it's the same as moving a SD) - albeit with a much higher capacity (so should be able to build a larger fleet at one spot).

Also, the GFs of the Arborec will be susceptible to bombardment and (unless you kept a Carrier with them) will be stuck on a planet and unable to get away (unlike the Saar's movable SDs). Not to mention Insurrection cards will kill the GFs.

The Carrier limit also means that you won't see Arborec spreading everywhere simultaneously.

Lastly, the Arborec player is going to be very ticked off when he/she gets the secret goal to build all of his/her SDs and, say, 5 dreadnaughts... given building SDs is less of a priority.

Frankly, I think the Saar having 4 pretty much invincible (as long as they are with other ships) SDs with a fixed 4 capacity (expanded with tech) that can move 1 space, then 2 spaces with tech seems just as good in practice (particularly given that losing the Saar homeworld isn't that big of a deal, with its low numbers). Nothing like camping a fleet in empty space right near your opponent's border with a SD and chugging out ships for the attack.

The Arborec are also limited by Fleet Capacity, right?
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Fedor Syagin
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Arborec player will love to have Primor - ground forces refresh ability is extremely good for them.
They can just stack GF there and use it as "space dock" like system after only 2 refresh ability use. (2gf a pop - that 2 capacity a pop!)
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Joshua Armstrong
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Not to mention that they make planets that have 0 for resources but high influence very viable for them.
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Andrew
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Axensmash wrote:
Not to mention that they make planets that have 0 for resources but high influence very viable for them.


I don't buy that. They are fine to build on, but they aren't "very viable". They still need resources with which to build, even if overall their build limit isn't affected by the resource value of the planet.

EDIT: WTF 3 different edits for typos, I should apply for a QA position at FFG.
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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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wardac wrote:
I don't buy that. They are fine to build on, but they aren't "very viable". They still need resources with which to build, even if overall their build limit isn't affected by the resource value of the planet.
I think he means that you will have more flexibility with influence rich planets.
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Brad Miller
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OrangeCat X wrote:
wardac wrote:
I don't buy that. They are fine to build on, but they aren't "very viable". They still need resources with which to build, even if overall their build limit isn't affected by the resource value of the planet.
I think he means that you will have more flexibility with influence rich planets.


I think he is saying the Arborec will have more use for those planets than other races, as they can use them to build. Other races will be less likely to be interested in fighting for "useless", resource-free planets.
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Andrew
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OrangeCat X wrote:
wardac wrote:
I don't buy that. They are fine to build on, but they aren't "very viable". They still need resources with which to build, even if overall their build limit isn't affected by the resource value of the planet.
I think he means that you will have more flexibility with influence rich planets.


Reading what I wrote, it would seem I understood that. They aren't "very viable", they are just OK to build on. There is a big difference - they still don't want those planets (at least not any more than anyone else).
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I think the Arborec will be an interseting race to play. Their Space Docks have the disadvantage that they cannot build Ground Forces but given the vulnerability of Space Docks to the "Local Unrest" Action Cards, most players will garrison a planet that has a Space Dock with at least 2 GFs. Consequently, the Arborec will be able to build GFs nearly every time they produce units at a Space Dock, because they will have GFs on the planet.

I suppose we shall have to wait for a ruling from FFG as to whether Arborec GFs can pool their build capacity to produce 2GFs or 2 Fighters for 1 resource (with two GFs in a system). Even if the answer is "no", I don't think this makes the Arborec a weak race, per se. Like the other races, their three Space Docks can still build 2 Fighters for 1 resource and the fact that each Arborec GF is also a miniature Space Dock might justify the notion that they should cost more than the typical GFs of the other races that lack this ability. To paraphrase another post (which I can't find right now), the ability of the Arborec to spawn a new Dreadnought on their frontlines forward of their Space Docks is enough to cause their opponents alarm. Moreover, a carrier full of GFs could spawn an impressive new fleet on their first action at the beginning of the next round of play. As Aaron Kurtz pointed out, it would take longer to do this the traditional way (with Space Docks). Once they research Spore Acceleration, Andrew Ward has already pointed out that the possible '1 GF costing 1 resource penalty' goes away, anyway.

I would pose a question to those of you who think that the Arborec GFs should be treated like Space Docks: do you think they should benefit from the Enviro Compensator technology? If so, this would be a cheaper way than their RST for them to obviate the aforementioned "1 GF for 1 resource penalty". However, the incentive to purchase their Spore Acceleration RST would then be reduced, especially as it is quite expensive at 5 resources plus a tech selection.

Glynr

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Dan
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Yeah... I see what you did there.
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I hate to tell you this. But any time a tech card says "space dock", I only applies to units BUILT at a space dock, meaning the Arborec will not be interested in the tech.

Hmmm...

OrangeCat's Future Tech Projection
Racial Technologies
Spore Acceleration: (As soon as I can grab the Technology card/afford it. WORTH IT.)
Bioplasmosis: Ah.. I like to explore domain chits. Pass, but I can see less adventurous people snapping it up.

Initial Technologies
Antimass Deflectors: A GOOD gateway tech.
Stasis Capsules: Oh YEAH. Who needs carriers!

Future Technologies
Neural Motivator: On extra action card, leading too...
Neural Computing: ...cheap tech. (Notice this is almost all green tech.)
XRD Transporters: *gasp* A non-green tech! (If I need speed, may skip, but cybernetics coming.)
Cybernetics: Leading too...
Gen Synthesis: My ground units are 1/2 immortal! Huzzah!!!
Hyper Metabolism: More counters, better action cards.
Dacxive Animators: Ok, especially if I'm being aggressive. Should be cheap as hell at this point.

At this point, I may consider another tech color I love...
Transit Diodes: *cough* Teleporting GF. *cough*
Micro Technology: More money
Nano Technology: You really should just surrender to the fungus now.
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OrangeCat X wrote:
I hate to tell you this. But any time a tech card says "space dock", it only applies to units BUILT at a space dock, meaning the Arborec will not be interested in the tech.


I'm not sure why you hate to tell me -- I asked people for their opinion and you graciously provided yours. FWIW, mine is that Arborec GFs do not benefit from (or suffer from) Technology Cards, Strategy Cards, Action Cards or Political Cards referring specifically to Space Docks. I guess many people appear to disagree so we'll have to wait for a ruling from FFG to see who is right.

If indeed Enviro Compensator technology does not boost Arborec GFs, I still don't think it's completely useless for them. Until they acquire Spore Acceleration, Space Docks are still the best way for them to build fighters and some of the objectives require certain combinations of tech. For example, the preliminary objective "Scientist" that requires its holder to possess three yellow techs could take a while to complete if you wait until you've reached Micro Technology, Nano Technology and Transit Diodes through the green or blue techs. It also is a prerequisite for Sarween Tools and since the Arborec will probably need to use their Space Docks and not rely solely on their GFs, particularly in the early game, that can be a very useful tech all round (not to mention it's a prerequisite for War Sun technology!). While Micro Tech will usually produce only two extra TGs most game rounds, Sarween Tools can save you 3 resources per game round once all your Space Docks are in play.

Your ideas for how Arborec should develop their tech look very compelling but I counted 11 tech acquisitions on your list. Unless you're playing the Long War or taking Technology II whenever the opportunity presents itself, it might be rare to see such an impressive assembly of Arborec tech in a game.
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