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Subject: Crashing going through a corner too fast... rss

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Travis Larsen

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So I have a question. It seemed to be brought up in the rulebook, but I'm still not sure if I understand. So what if I go through a corner and I'm going faster than the "speed limit" but after going through that speed check zone, I crash into the side of the track...what happens? Would I take dent cards based on how much faster I was going than the speed check and then take another dent card because I crashed? Or do I only take one dent card for crashing, continue my turn as stated in the rules, and not have to take extra dent cards for breaking the speed limit? Any thoughts here? Thanks you guys!
 
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Tor Sverre Lund
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Not 100% sure I understood your question, but in any case: The speed limit check is only for the turn when you pass the line, not for moving through the entire corner. If you manage to go too fast across the line on the same turn you crash into the wall, the dent cards would indeed accumulate. Bad idea ;)
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Andrew MacLeod
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jamjams32 wrote:
So I have a question. It seemed to be brought up in the rulebook, but I'm still not sure if I understand. So what if I go through a corner and I'm going faster than the "speed limit" but after going through that speed check zone, I crash into the side of the track...what happens? Would I take dent cards based on how much faster I was going than the speed check and then take another dent card because I crashed?


You would get one dent for each point you were going faster than the speed limit at the moment you crossed that red line. You would also get a dent for slamming into the wall. It doesn't matter if the crash prevents you from using your total speed. The fact is, you were traveling that speed when you crossed the red line!

jamjams32 wrote:
Or do I only take one dent card for crashing, continue my turn as stated in the rules, and not have to take extra dent cards for breaking the speed limit?


You've lost me here, Travis. Whenever you crash, your movement is finished for that turn: there's nothing to continue!
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Travis Larsen

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Ha ha, sorry guys. I guess I wasn't being super clear - that was probably my bad. I know once you cross that speed check line, you take dents according to how much faster you were going than the speed limit. And I know that your turn ends when a collision happens...I guess where my question is coming from is from this part in the rulebook talking about going through a corner to fast...it says:

"If the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now
resolved. If not, the player moves to step 3 of their turn (return
hand size to 5 cards)."

What does this statement mean exactly? I just wasn't sure if you would have to apply both negative affects of going too fast through the speed zone and crashing after that, because from the section of the rulebook that I quoted, it seems a little vague (like you might only do the negative affect of the collision and not the going too fast through the speed check). Thanks for your thoughts
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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jamjams32 wrote:
I guess where my question is coming from is from this part in the rulebook talking about going through a corner to fast...it says:

"If the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now
resolved. If not, the player moves to step 3 of their turn (return
hand size to 5 cards)."

What does this statement mean exactly?


You cross over the line too fast and you get the appropriate amount of dents immediately. Then, if you still have movement left, you keep going, and "if the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now resolved" and you get another dent for your collection at that point.
I want to thank you, Travis, for asking this question, as it's made me realize something:
Let's say you've got a track set up in which a speed barrier can be crossed and the finish line crossed (theoretically) on the same turn. Of course, it doesn't matter if your sled is destroyed with dents after you've crossed the finish line: you've still won. But as I re-read the rules that you've drawn my attention to, Travis, I realize that (by getting the speed dents immediately after crossing the speed barrier) your sled would already be destroyed before you make it to the finish line. That has the potential to make a significant difference!

EDIT: and the same would apply to running into trees immediately before the finish line. You're dented before you cross the line.
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Travis Larsen

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Thanks Andrew! Yeah that clears things up for me. Thanks for the clarification!
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Laurence Parsons
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amacleod wrote:
jamjams32 wrote:
I guess where my question is coming from is from this part in the rulebook talking about going through a corner to fast...it says:

"If the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now
resolved. If not, the player moves to step 3 of their turn (return
hand size to 5 cards)."

What does this statement mean exactly?


You cross over the line too fast and you get the appropriate amount of dents immediately. Then, if you still have movement left, you keep going, and "if the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now resolved" and you get another dent for your collection at that point.
I want to thank you, Travis, for asking this question, as it's made me realize something:
Let's say you've got a track set up in which a speed barrier can be crossed and the finish line crossed (theoretically) on the same turn. Of course, it doesn't matter if your sled is destroyed with dents after you've crossed the finish line: you've still won. But as I re-read the rules that you've drawn my attention to, Travis, I realize that (by getting the speed dents immediately after crossing the speed barrier) your sled would already be destroyed before you make it to the finish line. That has the potential to make a significant difference!

EDIT: and the same would apply to running into trees immediately before the finish line. You're dented before you cross the line.


I don't have the rules to hand, but from memory - if you exceed the speed limit and then cross the finish line in the same turn then:
1. You hit the corner and pick up dent cards for exceeding the speed limit.
2. You cross the finish line (and win?)
3. You draw/discard to 5 cards.
4. You check to see if you have 5 dent cards, if so your sled is destroyed.

However, you perform (2) before (4) so you have crossed the line, albeit in a big snowball of dogs and sled.
 
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Wulf Corbett
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I don't think it's actually possible to pass the finish line the same game turn you cross a corner line...

If you do, I want the dogs urine tested...
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Andrew MacLeod
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freduk wrote:
amacleod wrote:
jamjams32 wrote:
I guess where my question is coming from is from this part in the rulebook talking about going through a corner to fast...it says:

"If the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now
resolved. If not, the player moves to step 3 of their turn (return
hand size to 5 cards)."

What does this statement mean exactly?


You cross over the line too fast and you get the appropriate amount of dents immediately. Then, if you still have movement left, you keep going, and "if the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now resolved" and you get another dent for your collection at that point.
I want to thank you, Travis, for asking this question, as it's made me realize something:
Let's say you've got a track set up in which a speed barrier can be crossed and the finish line crossed (theoretically) on the same turn. Of course, it doesn't matter if your sled is destroyed with dents after you've crossed the finish line: you've still won. But as I re-read the rules that you've drawn my attention to, Travis, I realize that (by getting the speed dents immediately after crossing the speed barrier) your sled would already be destroyed before you make it to the finish line. That has the potential to make a significant difference!

EDIT: and the same would apply to running into trees immediately before the finish line. You're dented before you cross the line.


I don't have the rules to hand, but from memory - if you exceed the speed limit and then cross the finish line in the same turn then:
1. You hit the corner and pick up dent cards for exceeding the speed limit.
2. You cross the finish line (and win?)
3. You draw/discard to 5 cards.
4. You check to see if you have 5 dent cards, if so your sled is destroyed.

However, you perform (2) before (4) so you have crossed the line, albeit in a big snowball of dogs and sled.


That had been the way we played it, too, Laurence, until Travis's post made me re-read the rules. If you cross the finish line and crash into the side, giving you a fifth dent, then yes, you've won. But, any time your exceed the speed limit around the corner, you get your dent cards immediately, before you move any further. So it is conceivable that a corner just before the finish line could destroy your sled, which is a revelation to me rules-wise. However, it does make sense thematically: your sled has gone out of control at the corner, not as it crosses the finish line. The only time a player gets a dent at the end of his turn is if his turn has ended as a result of a crash; all other dents happen at the instance the dent-inducing incident takes place.
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
I don't think it's actually possible to pass the finish line the same game turn you cross a corner line...

If you do, I want the dogs urine tested...


That's it, Wulf! Make me look like an idiotsurprise!
Why, oh why, didn't I realize that? It's impossible to go over a speed bump and cross the finish line on the same turn! Yeah: like the Scottish wargamer said!
However (as the idiot tries to regain his dignity), you still get your dents immediately upon speeding over a red line or hitting a tree: and in terms of hitting a tree, that could conceivably destroy one's sled on the same turn that one crosses the finish line, thus destroying the sled before you've made it across.
Thank you. As you were......whistle
 
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Wulf Corbett
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amacleod wrote:
That's it, Wulf! Make me look like an idiotsurprise!
Why, oh why, didn't I realize that?
Yeah, well, I just finished a game a couple of hours ago, and one of my sleds disintegrated on the last turn...

So I was well prepared for the question
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Rob Robinson
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amacleod wrote:

However (as the idiot tries to regain his dignity), you still get your dents immediately upon speeding over a red line or hitting a tree: and in terms of hitting a tree, that could conceivably destroy one's sled on the same turn that one crosses the finish line, thus destroying the sled before you've made it across.
Thank you. As you were......whistle


Concerning Safety Speed. The Fragor Games rulebook states:

* The player completes the rest of their movement.

* They then draw 1 dent card for each point of speed they were over the safety speed.

However the rear page of the Asmodee version tells you to immediately draw dent cards, then continue with your movement.

However hitting trees is handled differently. In these instances the player takes a dent card immediately.
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
I don't think it's actually possible to pass the finish line the same game turn you cross a corner line...

If you do, I want the dogs urine tested...


D.E.Y.S.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Don't Eat Yellow Snow
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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zombiegod wrote:
amacleod wrote:

However (as the idiot tries to regain his dignity), you still get your dents immediately upon speeding over a red line or hitting a tree: and in terms of hitting a tree, that could conceivably destroy one's sled on the same turn that one crosses the finish line, thus destroying the sled before you've made it across.
Thank you. As you were......whistle


Concerning Safety Speed. The rulebook states:

* The player completes the rest of their movement.

* They then draw 1 dent card for each point of speed they were over the safety speed.

However hitting trees is handled differently. In these instances the player takes a dent card immediately.


But what confuses the issue are these three paragraphs, which are read one after the other in the rules:

Quote:
The player completes the rest of their movement.
They then draw 1 dent card for each speed they were over the safety speed (e.g., travelling at speed 5 over a speed limit of 3 means you draw 2 dent cards). Remember, bonus movement for balanced sleds counts towards the sled's speed.



So if we stopped reading there, then yes, for going too fast, you would get dent cards at the end of your turn. However, the next paragraph reads (and this is what I think caused problems for the OP):

Quote:
The safety speed only applies as a sled crosses the line. The corner has no further speed restrictions. Slow in - fast out! If the sled has also had a collision later in the turn then this is now resolved. If not, the player moves to step 3 of their turn (return hand size to 5 cards).


The resolution of a collision is a dent and the end of movement. If you do that "now", it could be construed that this implies "speed dents" were accrued before the collision. This would make more sense thematically. The problem for us is determining which paragraph takes precedence, since they do seem to conflict.
I enjoy Lamont Brothers games, but their rule books tend to be problematic!
 
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Wulf Corbett
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amacleod wrote:
The resolution of a collision is a dent and the end of movement.
No, the resolution of a collision with a tree is a dent. Collision with another sled does not cause a dent. Collision with a tree allows you to refill your hand to 5 cards, collision with a sled does not.

There is no contradiction in the rules you quote. The rule on collecting dent cards from speeding into a corner does not say 'at the end of your turn', it only says to complete movement. Since the nature of a collision affects how you end the turn (if you crash into a sled, you do not refill your hand, otherwise you do), things have to be done in order.
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
amacleod wrote:
The resolution of a collision is a dent and the end of movement.
No, the resolution of a collision with a tree is a dent. Collision with another sled does not cause a dent. Collision with a tree allows you to refill your hand to 5 cards, collision with a sled does not.

There is no contradiction in the rules you quote. The rule on collecting dent cards from speeding into a corner does not say 'at the end of your turn', it only says to complete movement. Since the nature of a collision affects how you end the turn (if you crash into a sled, you do not refill your hand, otherwise you do), things have to be done in order.


You're right, Wulf, but the OP was actually about crashing into the side of the track, not another player.
 
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Wulf Corbett
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amacleod wrote:
You're right, Wulf, but the OP was actually about crashing into the side of the track, not another player.
Yes, but I was addressing the point about the rulebook phraseology.
 
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Andrew MacLeod
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
amacleod wrote:
You're right, Wulf, but the OP was actually about crashing into the side of the track, not another player.
Yes, but I was addressing the point about the rulebook phraseology.


Alas, the rulebook phraseology isn't clear about what it's talking about. The rules for colliding with another player aren't given until after the section I quoted; which is immediately followed by the rules for colliding with the side of the track. Unfortunately, both incidents are described as "colliding"!
 
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Wulf Corbett
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Well, they are both collisions: they both involve colliding with things. But with different consequences.

Overspeeding into a corner can be followed by the normal turn order (go to Stage 3...), or by a collision (follow the instructions for the collision type involved).

Colliding with a sled does not allow you to refill your hand, but does require you to discard down to 5 - it then omits the 3rd stage of the player turn and skips to the next player, ending the turn prematurely...

Colliding with the side of the track causes a dent, but then allows stage 3 to take place normally.

Stage 3 involves refilling the hand &/or discarding down to 5 cards. The turn now ends.

There is no contradiction nor uncertainty. It's a straightforward sequence.
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