David F
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With the Cylon Fleet module, Pegasus often just becomes a damage sponge. Main Batteries is less useful with the CAG and MkVII vipers flying, and Pegasus CIC is not needed as long as you manage the Cylon Fleet, making Pegasus weaker and emphasizing it as only a place to throw damage at. The locations are often not good enough to risk stepping on Pegasus and having the next shot hit you.

How about this: the current player can only assign damage to Pegasus if there is a character on Pegasus.

Gameplay-wise, it prevents players from treating Pegasus like an unloved stepchild (and at least gives consequences if you do).

Thematically, the character on board is Commander of Pegasus, and without the Commander on there, Pegasus is not in the fray and is in another location protecting the fleet (like how Adama told Lee to stay away during the evacuation of New Caprica), and hence cannot be damaged.
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Matt Vollick
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I guess I see it from a different perspective. I see Main Batteries and Pegasus CIC being used more often, to clear out Raiders when they are far from civilians and to wound basestars, respectively, things you might not see in a game without the CFB.

If people want to use the glass cannon aka Pegasus as a damage sink I don't think they should be prevented from doing so but I think it's a poor plan.
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ackmondual
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Again, cylons win many more of our games to date, so while this is interesting variant, we won't be adapting this variant for the time being. At least 4 of them (though we have been playing alot given the time Exodus became available, so that's NOT the majority of ways the cylons have won) were Galactica getting destroyed, after going through Pegasus.



Vollick1979 wrote:
I guess I see it from a different perspective. I see Main Batteries and Pegasus CIC being used more often, to clear out Raiders when they are far from civilians and to wound basestars, respectively, things you might not see in a game without the CFB.

If people want to use the glass cannon aka Pegasus as a damage sink I don't think they should be prevented from doing so but I think it's a poor plan.


I gotta agree here. Pilots are more effective then ever, but so are the cylons with the CFB. Plus, Every now and then, the die rolls "incorrectly", they're skill card draws are lousy, and they otherwise could use a hand. If you get into situations where there are 12+ raiders or so on the MGB, then using Main Batteries a couple of times to trim those numbers down to 8 can go a long way to keeping raider numbers manageable. Less raiders for the Pilots to deal with, not to mention less shots mean they'll get shot down less frequentlr, which means you'll be able to XO them for multiple actions instead of just one action to use Hangar Deck to get back out in space.
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Kevin Conway
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Isn't this how it went down in the series?


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Klaus
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Simple and to the point, I like it.

We've had some discussion about the damage sponge issue on the Pegasus forum, you might want to take a look at those too, if you haven't already.
 
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Robert
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It's a nice and thematic idea to fix the "damage sponge" issue IMO.

Only problem to me is it makes the Pegasus board even more helpful than before. It gives the humans the advantage to choose to either use it when they need it or to make it indestructible to save it for later. Therefore revealed Cylons no longer have the option of destroying Pegasus if the humans don't allow it.

Edit: After some more thinking I like the idea more and more. I think it's concise, thematic and effective. I like it very much and want to use it. Thanks for suggesting it!
 
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Pieter
Netherlands
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In a recent PBF game when we got damage it was assigned randomly by the mod -- we did not get to choose Galactica or Pegasus. That was quite interesting.
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Zac Fox
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We throw all of the Galactica and Pegasus damage tokens into a small cup. Then anytime either ship would take damage, we just pull one randomly from the cup. Problem solved.
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Robert
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Slickj1 wrote:
We throw all of the Galactica and Pegasus damage tokens into a small cup. Then anytime either ship would take damage, we just pull one randomly from the cup. Problem solved.


I don't think this is a solution. It makes the locations on Pegasus less dangerous and Pegasus much less vulnerable. If you play this way you degrade Pegasus to just an extension of Galactica. And you take away all tactical decisions involving damage allocation, which makes the game less interesting IMO.
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ackmondual
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Diverting damage tokens to Pegasus, AND expecting to use those Pegsus locations is worse. If someone's going to repair, you'll want to damage Galactica instead so that the repair wo/men can repair damage without having to spend a skill card to go to Pegasus, and then perhaps another one to come back to Gal. If that repair person is going to end up staying on Peg. to activate those locations, then that's not as bad. However, from then on, damaging Pegasus runs the risk of sending that Repair person to Sickbay, so in that case, they'll need to spend an extra card to go back to Pegasus to repair. If they don't get XO-ed, they're losing out on 4 skill cards, which could've been a repair, or otherwise, any other skill card useful toward your typical, run-of-the-mill skill checks.

If you divert it back to Galactica, then ideally, you'd want someone else to cover Galactica, NOT the original Repair person to have to run back to repair.

Some games, groups never touch Pegasus. If that's the case, since we're already playing with variants, you may as well house rule that when playing with the Pegasus exp, the Pegasus board itself will NOT be used. Everything else though (Destination cards, Qcard, Treachery, characters, etc.) still get used. No more damage sponge issue in this proposed variant, b/c Pegasus ain't around to do that.
 
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Tables
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I must admit, I like the idea, and may suggest it in a future game. However, I strongly disagree that this is a problem being caused by the CFB - if anything, the CF option has minimised this occuring as damaging basestars via CIC has become more valuable, and taking out large numbers of raiders if necessary via main Batteries can be a necessity; especially if you have few pilots, you'll want to keep that around. Without the CF, I would regularly find the only person to ever visit Pegasus was Cain, and that's just because a turn one CIC on that Basestar was kinda useful.
 
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David F
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I was being minimalist in the first post, but here's the reasoning spelled out in detail:

When playing with the CFB, Main Batteries and Pegasus CIC are weaker than when not playing with it.
- The CAG and MkVII vipers make pilots and vipers a lot more capable of taking out raiders now. Main Batteries is not weak, it's weaker than when playing without the CFB.
- Without the CFB, you sometimes wanted to leave no basestars on the board. With the CFB, you always want to leave 1 basestar on the board, so the Cylon Fleet doesn't build and waste your actions on escorting civilian ships that pop up. This means you just save your nukes for when the 2nd basestar actually shows up. The possibility of a 3rd nuke and other ways to "game" the activation icons so only 1 basestar shows up nearly completely negates any need to fire on basestars via non-nuke means. When actually firing on a basestar non-nuke in order to pull useful damage tokens, Weapons Control is often a better bet since with Pegasus CIC, you might damage Pegasus (and damage hurts when playing with the CFB), and if you damage twice, you might actually pull Critical Hit and destroy the basestar, which you don't want.

When playing with the CFB, loss by damage is much more likely.
- This is because of the Basestar Bridge, and also because you want to keep 1 basestar around, which will take its potshots at Galactica more often.

Taking these 2 facts together, humans are less likely to step on Pegasus because it's too easy to get hit, and the locations aren't as attractive to justify the risk.
- In fact, it's better to always leave Pegasus empty, so you can just take damage on there without fear of sending anybody to Sickbay. Engine Room and Airlock are still as situational as ever, and Main Batteries and CIC are less useful when playing with the CFB. The primary use of Pegasus in CFB is to be an empty damage-soaker.

This variant offers 2 gameplay improvements:

Choosing to damage Galactica or Pegasus is always more interesting when there are characters in damageable locations on both ships.
- It's a no-brainer to damage Pegasus when it's empty. This variant creates more interesting situations.

Destroying Pegasus hurts
- If Pegasus was on 3 damage, it was always a no-brainer to just destroy it, since it'd be too much work for a repairman to bring it back into operation, all the while you assign damage to Galactica for fear of him getting hit while he repairs each location. Now, if you destroy Pegasus, it means you must send at least 1 person to Sickbay.

Does not interfere with Cylon strategy
Cylons only want to damage Pegasus when there are people on there, so this has absolutely no effect on Cylon strategy.
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Cheza Moonmaiden
Germany
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We fixed the "damage sponge" problem by spending a few cents:

Buy an opaque bag and put all the damage tokens of both battlestars in this bag... problem fixed!!!

Or you could buy two bags and separate the damage tokens. THEN, swap the "fuel" and "food" marker into the "pegasus bag". Now each bag should have 6 damage tokens. If the humans choose to hit the pegasus, the risk of loosing resources has inceased, but the risk of being sent to sickbay is resduced. But this makes the Basestar Bridge MORE powerful, whenever the cylons choose Galactica.
 
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ackmondual
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selwyth wrote:
.........

Destroying Pegasus hurts
- If Pegasus was on 3 damage, it was always a no-brainer to just destroy it, since it'd be too much work for a repairman to bring it back into operation, all the while you assign damage to Galactica for fear of him getting hit while he repairs each location. Now, if you destroy Pegasus, it means you must send at least 1 person to Sickbay.

Does not interfere with Cylon strategy
Cylons only want to damage Pegasus when there are people on there, so this has absolutely no effect on Cylon strategy.


Well, someone could always just go to a damaged spot to avoid taking damage (ie while waiting for someone to XO him so he can Repair and say, fire Main Batteries), unless the spirit of this variant allows for that anyways.
 
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Robert Stewart
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I disagree that Pegasus CIC and Main Batteries are weaker with CFB than without.

Yes, CAG and MkVIIs make vipers more effective at taking out raiders, and the improved and extra nukes let the admiral wipe out more Cylon ships too, but what used to be the most devastating weaponry against the Cylons - the jump track and FTL Control - are neutered since every Cylon you jump away from is just another ship for the fleet that's eventually going to catch up and hammer you. Without CFB, you can often ignore the Cylons (if they even turn up) and concentrate on other things; with it, you need to blow them up...

An XO to a pilot with two Maximum Firepowers and 8 raiders in his sector will average six dead raiders for three cards (and CAG can add another three-quarters of a raider if there's an unmanned viper in the right place); one to someone in Main Batteries with two Strategic Plannings and at least 4 raiders in each of two sectors or 8 in one will average five-and-a-half dead raiders for three cards (and damage a quarter of a viper if they're in the line of fire). If you don't have the extra cards to throw around, an XO to Main Batteries will take out three-and-a-half raiders (and half a viper and a quarter of a civilian) for one card, while an XO to a pilot on the spot will take out one-and-a-half raiders for one card (two-and-a-quarter if they're CAG).

It takes time to get a Pilot into space, or a character to Main Batteries, but you can leave a character in Main Batteries more-or-less indefinitely, while a Pilot gets the combat landing every time you jump even if the raiders keep lining up for him.

Vipers are still better at taking out smaller groups of raiders, where a good MB roll would be overkill, but with CFB, you're more likely to have large groups of raiders to shoot at, and more likely to want to shoot them down rather than wait out the jump clock. Without CFB, by the time you have enough raiders to be worrying, you're generally better off using Communications to keep the civvies safe and scouting for jump icons than sending vipers out to get shot down...

With or without CFB, all the Pegasus locations are situational, but Main Batteries sees its situation (raider swarms) come up more often with CFB than without.

If the President is in their Office, and the CAG is in space, and someone (Dee?) is in Communications, then you have three humans accounted for without anyone being in danger of being hit whichever ship damage gets directed to. From there, you can come up with an unconventional, but broadly effective, character distribution where Pegasus does most of the work and Galactica is the sponge.


The obvious problem with the proposed variant is that it doesn't address the perceived problem - that Pegasus isn't interesting/useful enough to make it worth sending characters there to do stuff at risk of taking damage. It replaces "Pegasus actions aren't worth getting shot at" with "Someone needs to go to Pegasus so we can shoot at them". If there's a real problem with Pegasus just acting as a 4-point damage buffer, then why not just start Pegasus with 4 damage and ignore it entirely?
 
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Cheza Moonmaiden
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@ Robert Stewart:
It's simply true that an additional viper activation (CAG) and a higher movement distance (Mark VII) improves the pilots. Therefore, a comparison between the improved pilots and unchanged pegasus locations always results in a "less useful pegasus location" statement. But this doesn't mean that the locations are "weak" or "useless".

As long as the pilot doesn't have a "Maximum Firepower" skill cards, the Main Batteries always do a better job in destroying Raiders. On the average, the Main Batteries destroy 1.75 Raiders per activation. Even if you assume that the pilot AND the unmanned viper (CAG activation) can attack, the average result is 1.5. Ergo, the "Main Battery" location is always better.

Pilots also have another problem. They can't always reach the enemy. A problem that doesn't exist, if you use the Main Battieries. In addition, a strategic planning is more effective when used on the main batteries and an "Executive Order" played on any character in the Main Batteries is usually as effective as a CAG with a "Maximum Firepower".

But on the contrast, pilots can do many different things: They can attack Heavy Raiders, escort ships and offer a better protection (civvies). So piloting a viper often seems more advisable, but not necessarily better.

"Pegasus is just a damage sponge" doesn't derive from the "Mark VII" or CAG boni, but from the fact that the CFB makes it more likely that a battlestar is damaged. Even before Exodus, we rarely chose Galactica as the primary target, but we usually had enough time to repair the damage.

As I've already written, it would be easy to fix this issue: Simply put all damage tokens together in an opaque bag. But this would fix the consequence, but not the cause.
 
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Robert Stewart
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The facts are that adding the Cylon Fleet Board to the game:

1) Makes piloting stronger relative to other actions
2) Makes all actions that can shoot down Cylons stronger relative to other actions

Main Batteries remain the best option for shooting down Raiders before they engage, though once they do engage, Vipers offer less risk of collateral damage. The CFB means that it's worth spending actions to thin out Raiders before they engage rather than waiting to see whether they reach you before you Jump. If you ignore the increased chance of ending up in Sickbay from combat damage (which also applies to Pilots with more Raiders flying around) then Main Batteries actually gets stronger with CFB in play.


The complaint that this thread is supposed to address is that Pegasus (with the CFB in play) only sees play as somewhere to put the Treachery deck, and as four extra hit-points before you have to start repairing Galactica. The initial proposal says "to get the extra hit-points, someone has to move to/stay on Pegasus". The cloth-bag proposal says "You only get all four extra hit-points 60% of the time, three extra 26.7% of the time, two extra 10%, one extra 3% and no extra hit points 0.3% of the time. And you can't be sure which ship will be hit each time"

A better (but harder to actually implement) solution would be to actually look for opportunities to use Pegasus and discover that it's actually an asset for more than its big butt...
 
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Cheza Moonmaiden
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If a group has to choose whether the pegasus is hit or not, it always depends on 4 facts:

1. You decrease the chance that the cylons can win the game
Already mentioned. This includes the direct result, but also possible threats as well. An activation of both battlestars can easily result in two additional hits. And since the cylon is the active player, he chooses which battlestar is hit. So unrepaired battlestar locations, even if this includes weapons control and admiral's quarter impose a higher risk for the humans.

2. Players on Galactica don't risk to be sent to sickbay
Depending on the overall situation, there are usually more characters on galactica... Pilots return to the hangar deck, military leaders often stay at the command location and so on. Trauma tokens are another threat.

3. You don't risk an additional loss of fuel.
self-explaining

4. Beside Main Batteries, there are no other powerful pegasus locations
That's one essential fact. Even if we argue about the effectiveness of the pegasus main batteries and even though it's questionable how important the locations are, our players usually prefer damaged main batteries over a damaged hangar deck, command location or FTL control. And once the main batteries got damaged, the argument not to choose pegasus becomes invalid.

It's true, the cloth-bag solution doesn't guarantee 4 additional hits, but if the cylon players are smart, they will choose the battlestar nonetheless how powerful the main batteries are. Therefore - in a typical game - you won't have 4 "free" hits either.

This solution however, solves all the 4 issues mentioned above.
- you can't avoid the risk of a damaged hangar deck by choosing pegasus
- you have an equal chance to be sent to sickbay no matter if you're on pegasus or battlestar
- players can't avoid the risk of losing resources
- cylon players can't choose to hit Galactica first to increase their chances to win.

The last one is a nice strategy for cylon players, if there is no real supporter on the human side anymore and extremely powerful, if both cylons act after each other. Simply choose to attack with both basestars. They hit on a 4+, so chances are quite good that there are 3 damaged battlestar locations after both cylon turns. Repeat this 1-2 times and the game is over.... quite an easy victory.

Point 3 was also the reason why I presented the alternative rule: Use 2 opaque bags - one for each battlestar - and but the 2 resource tokens into the pegasus bag.

So last but not least, I agree with you that any attempt to force players to ge to the pegasus just to being able to hit it feels strange and gives a wrong signal to the players. But I fear that the power of the main batteries isn't enough to convince players not to choose the pegasus.
 
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Robert Stewart
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Cheza Moonmaiden wrote:
4. Beside Main Batteries, there are no other powerful pegasus locations
That's one essential fact. Even if we argue about the effectiveness of the pegasus main batteries and even though it's questionable how important the locations are, our players usually prefer damaged main batteries over a damaged hangar deck, command location or FTL control. And once the main batteries got damaged, the argument not to choose pegasus becomes invalid.


The Engine Room is rather under-rated - it can be the difference between "with luck, we should get the chance to Jump before losing" and "two more turns and we're outta here" - it's not the splashiest effect, and a lot of the time it will do nothing - but if you're willing to use Strategic Planning to protect your last Raptor when you Launch Scout to dig for Jump icons, you should at least consider spending two low cards rather than a low and a high to guarantee the Jump icon rather than just boosting your chances of drawing one.

The Engine Room isn't strictly better than a Planned Scout - you still have to deal with the Crisis you could have buried, and you can't do anything with the Destinations, but, when it comes to avoiding losing, keeping the engines stoked is hard to beat...
 
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ackmondual
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rmsgrey wrote:
Cheza Moonmaiden wrote:
4. Beside Main Batteries, there are no other powerful pegasus locations
That's one essential fact. Even if we argue about the effectiveness of the pegasus main batteries and even though it's questionable how important the locations are, our players usually prefer damaged main batteries over a damaged hangar deck, command location or FTL control. And once the main batteries got damaged, the argument not to choose pegasus becomes invalid.


The Engine Room is rather under-rated - it can be the difference between "with luck, we should get the chance to Jump before losing" and "two more turns and we're outta here" - it's not the splashiest effect, and a lot of the time it will do nothing - but if you're willing to use Strategic Planning to protect your last Raptor when you Launch Scout to dig for Jump icons, you should at least consider spending two low cards rather than a low and a high to guarantee the Jump icon rather than just boosting your chances of drawing one.

The Engine Room isn't strictly better than a Planned Scout - you still have to deal with the Crisis you could have buried, and you can't do anything with the Destinations, but, when it comes to avoiding losing, keeping the engines stoked is hard to beat...


Agreed... to me, every peggy location has seen its fair use, it's just some more than others, just like Galactica. Except with Pegasus, it's on a much smaller scale.
 
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ackmondual
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selwyth wrote:
Thematically, the character on board is Commander of Pegasus, and without the Commander on there, Pegasus is not in the fray and is in another location protecting the fleet (like how Adama told Lee to stay away during the evacuation of New Caprica), and hence cannot be damaged.
I never got around to asking... thematically, if no1's aboard Galactica, it gets damaged anyways b/c it's always on the front line?
 
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Peter O
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We have a much higher human win rate for our group. We've gone so far as to remove the Mark VIIs and we still use Pegasus as a damage spong. So we'll be trying the following out tomorrow:

Throw all the cylon attack cards in with everthing else. Use ALL vipers. Will we continue to use Pegesus as a damage sponge? Who kows, but the humns will have a mighty hard time of it!

We might need to nerf the Basestar Bridge location in some way in future plays with this variant. I'll post in a new thread if it turns out any good.
 
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