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Subject: Expansions and First Turn Advantage rss

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Dan Dolan
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I wonder if we could get one of the online sites to set up a playtest of this variant.

Anybody know the folks at Boardspace?
 
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Randall Ingersoll
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Phlegm wrote:
I wonder if we could get one of the online sites to set up a playtest of this variant.

Anybody know the folks at Boardspace?


Dave has already made it clear that he will not implement any changes to Hive at Boardspace that are not authorized by John Yiani and the Gen42 group.

One can play in a review room with any rules that you want. It is just that there will not be a bot to play against, and the game history will not be stored.

Someone did however implement Hive at the Vassal web site, but I don't know enough to know how it plays.

But to change the topic a little. I don't think that this 'White advantage' thing is a serious concern. There is a definite bias toward White when playing with L & M, but in a match situation, it balances out in the end.

The best option, in my opinion, is to come with a good defensive bug that Black can use to counter the first move advantage.
 
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Dan Dolan
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rmingersoll wrote:


The best option, in my opinion, is to come with a good defensive bug that Black can use to counter the first move advantage.


I normally start with the spider. I don't know if it's the best or not but in most of my games the first piece doesn't get to move very often.

With the variant Black has the ability to introduce a LB early on or the Mos when things get complex.
 
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H Jacobs
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rmingersoll wrote:
The best option, in my opinion, is to come with a good defensive bug that Black can use to counter the first move advantage.


I agree that in the current format the best option for an expansion would be a defensive bug.

But it's not that easy to design a defensive bug. We have seen plenty of proposals of attacking bugs, but good ideas for defensive ones are rare.

And even when a defensive bug is decent, are people going to buy such a piece? I doubt that a defensive bug will sell.

Therefore probably the best option for adding expansions is changing the format as discussed in this thread. Gen42 can create 20 new pieces this way, without doing much harm to the game.

H
 
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Jarek Szczepanik
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Chlorix wrote:

And even when a defensive bug is decent, are people going to buy such a piece? I doubt that a defensive bug will sell.

Therefore probably the best option for adding expansions is changing the format as discussed in this thread. Gen42 can create 20 new pieces this way, without doing much harm to the game.


You may be right. As for defensive bugs, I think they could be released (assuming there would be some) as a part of a new (or a special) edition of Hive rather then separate additions.

As for changing the original setup of the game and composing your own hive, I would be very cautious - by changing number of pieces or number of ants/spiders/grasshoppers in the game can lead to the situation, where everyone choose only powerful creatures as mosquito, ladybug or any other offensive bug, leaving out one or two original ones. If one does that, will this game still be the Hive we all know? The same applies to number of expansions. We can't have too many - although not tested, my hypothesis is that the maximum number of expansions (with limiting the number of pieces played to 13, included two expansions of player's choice - one offensive, one defensive) should be 5-6. Besides, expansions are best for players who already know the game and have achieved some understanding of game mechanics and experimented with different strategies. Defensive pieces as well as new possibilities for defensive strategies are needed, but it takes some time with Hive to become appreciative of more defensive style of playing.
 
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Dan Dolan
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I agree that changing the type numbers of the base game would need to be heavily tested.

My option where Black gets to choose the first expansion and White then gets the other was a try at overcoming the perceived White first move advantage.

I'm not in favor of random changes. I'm looking at a single thing and trying to find the simplest fix.
 
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H Jacobs
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Svartisen wrote:

As for changing the original setup of the game and composing your own hive, I would be very cautious - by changing number of pieces or number of ants/spiders/grasshoppers in the game can lead to the situation, where everyone choose only powerful creatures as mosquito, ladybug or any other offensive bug, leaving out one or two original ones. If one does that, will this game still be the Hive we all know? The same applies to number of expansions. We can't have too many - although not tested, my hypothesis is that the maximum number of expansions (with limiting the number of pieces played to 13, included two expansions of player's choice - one offensive, one defensive) should be 5-6. Besides, expansions are best for players who already know the game and have achieved some understanding of game mechanics and experimented with different strategies. Defensive pieces as well as new possibilities for defensive strategies are needed, but it takes some time with Hive to become appreciative of more defensive style of playing.



I wasn't referring to the "create your own Hive" format, because with that format you need some extra boundries, like giving the pieces values (a Spider is much cheaper than a Mosquito), a minimum and/or maximum number of pieces, the maximum number of pieces that can reach an enclosed field etc., etc.

But that is really a different game. I meant of course the use of the basic game, then take out the third Grasshopper and let the players replace it by either the Mosquito, Ladybug or third Grasshopper and all the variants of that theme that are discussed here.

It sounds like the best option for the game:
1. Leave the basic game (without Ladybug and Mosquito) as it is.
2. Create a balanced variant (variants) in which you can use special pieces.

H
 
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Dan Dolan
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You can always play the base game as is. The discussion was concerning balancing the use of the LB and Mos.

Given the seeming White advantage some way must be found to give Black an edge using these pieces. The question is how?

My proposal is this ..

White plays first.

Black can choose to play either the Lady Bug or the Mosquito at any time.

After Black chooses one of these two pieces White can then use the other.

Each player will only have access to one of the expansion pieces.

Until theses rules are tested I think keeping things simple regarding changes is the way to go.

If anyone tries these rules please post here the results.

 
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