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JAB: Realtime Boxing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Incorrect Block rss

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Reini Schmidt
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Am I allowed to block incorrect (e.g. to get a counter-punch)? With incorrect blocking I mean: Purposely lay down a card on my boxer which doesnt match in colour or punch-type to the card my opponent played.
 
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matt tolman
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Nope. This is not allowed. There is no way to back it up and check it later however. Simply put, doing it is cheating, and cheaters never prosper. This is my understanding however, and is completely unofficial. I'm sure Gavan will chime in with the "official ruling".
 
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Seth Jaffee
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mopeymatt wrote:
Nope. This is not allowed. There is no way to back it up and check it later however. Simply put, doing it is cheating, and cheaters never prosper. This is my understanding however, and is completely unofficial. I'm sure Gavan will chime in with the "official ruling".

I personally like to say that "legal blocks" cancel punches (during scoring) - you can tell if it was a legal block or not if you look before you pull it out...

but that doesn't really answer your question - Matt's right, it's not allowed, that would be cheating.
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Gavan Brown
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mopeymatt wrote:
Nope. This is not allowed. There is no way to back it up and check it later however. Simply put, doing it is cheating, and cheaters never prosper. This is my understanding however, and is completely unofficial. I'm sure Gavan will chime in with the "official ruling".


Matt is officially correct.
 
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Jim Miller
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sedjtroll wrote:
I personally like to say that "legal blocks" cancel punches (during scoring) - you can tell if it was a legal block or not if you look before you pull it out...


I agree that it is important during scoring to "validate" each block in the stack. There are a few times where you inadvertantly place an illegal block (a block that didn't match type or color). I've even seen players accidentally block one of their own blocks.

Validating is easy to do: when you grab your punch pile (from in front of your opponent), just deal the cards one at the time from the BOTTOM of the pile. When you come to a block card, just ensure that it matched (color or punch type) the previous card from the pile. If so, pull it out as a legitimate block. If not, discard it.
 
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Seth Jaffee
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jmiller1020 wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
I personally like to say that "legal blocks" cancel punches (during scoring) - you can tell if it was a legal block or not if you look before you pull it out...


I agree that it is important during scoring to "validate" each block in the stack. There are a few times where you inadvertantly place an illegal block (a block that didn't match type or color). I've even seen players accidentally block one of their own blocks.

Validating is easy to do: when you grab your punch pile (from in front of your opponent), just deal the cards one at the time from the BOTTOM of the pile. When you come to a block card, just ensure that it matched (color or punch type) the previous card from the pile. If so, pull it out as a legitimate block. If not, discard it.

Maybe quicker/less fiddly... just fan the cards and look at the color/punch of each block and each card behind the block as you pull the block out.
 
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Avri Klemer
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What are people doing when they come across an illegal block? The first one's a warning, the second is the loss of the round?
 
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Jim Miller
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sedjtroll wrote:
Maybe quicker/less fiddly... just fan the cards and look at the color/punch of each block and each card behind the block as you pull the block out.


I like that too...fight on!
 
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Reini Schmidt
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So you can say that an illegal block is just like a low blow and that is forbidden.
 
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George Leach
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Perhaps if you catch a 'lowblow'/'grizzling' (i.e. foul block) during the round you can take back a wound from your opponent and they get a warning. On the second incident that's caught they forfeit a counterpunch/combo card (or all counterpunch combo cards) collected that round plus the wound exchange. On the third incident they automatically lose the round plus a wound exchange?

Plus during the counting all foul blocks are discarded.
 
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Jim Miller
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DerLustigePete wrote:
So you can say that an illegal block is just like a low blow and that is forbidden.


I don't see any reason to penalize an "illegal block"...as long as you don't count it as a block during scoring it ultimately is penalty enough that the player basically wasted the card.
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Michael Logan
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jmiller1020 wrote:
DerLustigePete wrote:
So you can say that an illegal block is just like a low blow and that is forbidden.


I don't see any reason to penalize an "illegal block"...as long as you don't count it as a block during scoring it ultimately is penalty enough that the player basically wasted the card.


Illegal block could also block combos or help create counterpunch opportunities.

Basically it is ... "no cheating".

Understanding that accidents happen...just not counting it during scoring would be enough. But if over abused (intentional or not), some penalty might be appropriate.
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Bryan Graham
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jmiller1020 wrote:
DerLustigePete wrote:
So you can say that an illegal block is just like a low blow and that is forbidden.


I don't see any reason to penalize an "illegal block"...as long as you don't count it as a block during scoring it ultimately is penalty enough that the player basically wasted the card.

Yeah, this is what we've always done. You don't count it as a block, and just say "wow, way to waste a card."
mfl134 wrote:

Illegal block could also block combos or help create counterpunch opportunities.

Basically it is ... "no cheating".

Understanding that accidents happen...just not counting it during scoring would be enough. But if over abused (intentional or not), some penalty might be appropriate.

I hadn't thought of it affecting counter-punch or blocking combos. Yeah, I guess if they did it A LOT, you'd have to come up with a penalty system.
 
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Michael Shaver
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RoosterJuice wrote:
mopeymatt wrote:
Nope. This is not allowed. There is no way to back it up and check it later however. Simply put, doing it is cheating, and cheaters never prosper. This is my understanding however, and is completely unofficial. I'm sure Gavan will chime in with the "official ruling".


Matt is officially correct.


I'm sorry Gavan but this ruling just says they're illegal but not what you do when you find them.  The rules already say you can only play a block if...  And the title of the thread is "Incorrect Block".

I think there should have been something in the rules with respect to misplayed blocks.  I'm not saying I'm planning to cheat, I'm sayin that it is an intense real time game an misplayed blocks will happen. The question is what to do about them?

Let'd say I'm about to block my opponents 'Jab' with a 'Green Jab' and he sneaks a 'Red Cross' in under my card as I'm slamming it down.  Now my block is illegal. Does it still count as a block when scoring that pile?  The situation gets more complicated if my illegal block with the 'Green Jab' creates a green counter punch opportunity and I knock my opponent out for the win. Did I cheat because I capitalized on a misplayed card?  It wasn't an intentional misplay. Should I just let my opponent counter punch me instead?  Should I pick up my played card? What if we don't find I until scoring. 

So I repeat my question. What do I do about the inevitable illegal blocks that will happen?

Some examples from other realtime  games of what to do with illegally played cards. 
Fightball wrote:
the objective is to play cards A, B and C into each pile in that order. Starting a pile with anything other than an A is a foul. Playing a C onto a pile before a B is a foul and playing anything after a C is a foul.  You score at the end of the round and fouls give points to your opponent.


Brawl wrote:
some plays are illegal. If you make a mistake you a supposed to pick up the misplayed card and step back the game to the point where you made the mistake. If you can't, you forfeit the game. 


Space Alert wrote:
build a ship in real time. When you are checking your ship any misplayed pieces fall off and count against your score. 


Falling wrote:
there are three types of cards: riders, actions and extras. Each player can have exactly one or zero riders in front of them and a rider can have exactly one or zero extras attached to it.  Plays that result it two riders or two extras in a pile are illegal but it's pretty easy to tell if a play was illegal because piles consist of 0, 1 or 2 cards and if it's a question of timing (eg. two people playing to the stack at the same time) the dealer's call is final. 


Frenzy wrote:
 two types of cards A and B. There is one stack where it is illegal to play A cards and the round ends if you play 3 B cards into that stack.  Again it's pretty easy to tell if one of the three cards is an A. Further if you knock over any stack or disrupt the game you forfeit. 


JAB
If the game was only about scoring points I think it would be fairly straight forward to introduce a monetary penalty (such as the illegal block leaves you open and cancels a good block or -2 pts etc).  Unfortunatey here there are two victory conditions. Therefore -2 pts isn't much of a penalty if I KO my opponent and win.  You could introduce a penalty of points and a health transfer. 
However I think I'm leaning toward the brawl approach. Back the game up and if you can't back it up you loose the round.   Its consistant with your ruling but gives instruction on how to proceed if you notice the illegal block right away or during scoring.  It's pretty harsh especially if you find an illegal block in your score pile. The blocker looses. But it's fair and discourages play of illegal blocks. You could still illegally block, score a combo and prevent your opponent from scoring that pile so they wouldn't find it but it would be cheating as defind in the rules and not gaming the scoring system.  

Any thoughts Gavan?  
I'd like to see your response in a FAQ or Errata. When I read the rules It felt like an omission. 

Cheers,
Mike
Thanks for the addition to my realtime game collection. 
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Michael Giron
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I agree with stray_flux, I think there needs to be some sort of penalty for illegal blocking. As someone who has been guilty of playing illegal blocks accidentally more then I care to admit, I worry about the perception that I might be intentionally cheating. (Hmmm you took all 5 counter punches that round and played 3 illegal blocks, sounds a bit fishy...)

If there was a severe enough penalty for blocking illegally then there would be no way to argue that I was doing it intentionally. Plus I would have more of an incentive to get better at blocking cleanly all the time.

That said....this game is REALLY frickin awesome. I taught my kids (ages 8 and 5) and I was surprised at how quickly they caught on. The look on my daughter's face when she was finally able to beat me (by KO no less) was priceless. Thanks Gaven for all the work you obviously put into this game.
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Michael Logan
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eskmoe wrote:
I agree with stray_flux, I think there needs to be some sort of penalty for illegal blocking. As someone who has been guilty of playing illegal blocks accidentally more then I care to admit, I worry about the perception that I might be intentionally cheating. (Hmmm you took all 5 counter punches that round and played 3 illegal blocks, sounds a bit fishy...)

If there was a severe enough penalty for blocking illegally then there would be no way to argue that I was doing it intentionally. Plus I would have more of an incentive to get better at blocking cleanly all the time.

That said....this game is REALLY frickin awesome. I taught my kids (ages 8 and 5) and I was surprised at how quickly they caught on. The look on my daughter's face when she was finally able to beat me (by KO no less) was priceless. Thanks Gaven for all the work you obviously put into this game.


If it gets out of control just add the illegal blocks as positive points. Or add them to the opponents chosen pile as blocks.
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Sean Tompkins
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mfl134 wrote:
eskmoe wrote:
I agree with stray_flux, I think there needs to be some sort of penalty for illegal blocking. As someone who has been guilty of playing illegal blocks accidentally more then I care to admit, I worry about the perception that I might be intentionally cheating. (Hmmm you took all 5 counter punches that round and played 3 illegal blocks, sounds a bit fishy...)

If there was a severe enough penalty for blocking illegally then there would be no way to argue that I was doing it intentionally. Plus I would have more of an incentive to get better at blocking cleanly all the time.

That said....this game is REALLY frickin awesome. I taught my kids (ages 8 and 5) and I was surprised at how quickly they caught on. The look on my daughter's face when she was finally able to beat me (by KO no less) was priceless. Thanks Gaven for all the work you obviously put into this game.


If it gets out of control just add the illegal blocks as positive points. Or add them to the opponents chosen pile as blocks.


Ooh - I like this one. Any illegal blocks count as positive points. Maybe even make it positive points X 2...
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Calvo Calvo
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This is an issue, in my opinion, critical to the game. I think it's very important to apply some form of penalizing errors (or cheating soblue ) and minimize this effect.
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Seth Jaffee
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PolluxPolaris wrote:
I'm not sure if this should be penalized. It's been speculated elsewhere here that combos are overpowered and counter punches are underpowered.

I don't know where that was speculated, but I don't think it's accurate.
 
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Michael Shaver
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PolluxPolaris wrote:
I'm not sure if this should be penalized. It's been speculated elsewhere here that combos are overpowered and counter punches are underpowered. Allowing a player to misfire a punch to mess up a combo makes them alot more difficult to pull off. Likewise they could be used to give you a counter punch.
The thing is, allowing incorrect blocks allows you to block a combo with no regard for punch or color and it allows you to set up counter punches and claim them immediately before your opponent realizes.

I'm leaning towards the designers intention of incorrect blocks are cheating and the question is what to do about them.

I'm going to house rule the backing up to fix the situation or just loosing the round if found later. You shouldn't have to back up too many times before the offender learns not to do it.

(I don't allow cheating in any other game just because it expands the strategic space )

Cheers,
Mike
 
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George Leach
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I'll be playing that incorrect blocks add their points rather than subtract them. But if that turns out not to be sufficient then there'll be additional points & health penalities.
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Sean Tompkins
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PolluxPolaris wrote:
The problem with categorizing it as cheating is that it's much easier to make a mistake in a real time game. I think it's more likely to be a foul than deliberate cheating and should be penalized as such, if at all.


Abolutely. It's absolutely possible in a fast-paced real time game to make a mistake. It's going to be hard to quantify after the fact if something was a mistake, or was deliberate. I agree that the rule stands that says it's illegal, and anyone caught doing it intentionally will be considered cheating and will forfeit -- but I don't know that intentional will be caught. Having a penalty in place so that a single mistake is noticed and some slight penalty is awarded will serve to "warn" someone that they did something wrong -- and having a single player consistently get penalized for ongoing "mistakes" can serve as a good indicator that it's intentional on their part.
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Seth Jaffee
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What about this... after each round, as well as after a knockout, check all of the winner's punch piles and for each incorrect block, the winner gives up a health to the loser (and maybe also, incorrect blocks add instead of subtract judge points).

That way, if you do it on accident it's not THAT big a deal, and you can't really win the game from it, but if you do it on purpose then the penalty directly impacts your reason for doing it...
 
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Seth Jaffee
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PolluxPolaris wrote:
sedjtroll wrote:
What about this... after each round, as well as after a knockout, check all of the winner's punch piles and for each incorrect block, the winner gives up a health to the loser (and maybe also, incorrect blocks add instead of subtract judge points).

Not thematically coherent enough.

Thematically it would represent the 5-minute break awarded by a ref (see wikipedia quote from a couple posts ago) - giving the boxer a chance to recover a bit, equalizing their health relative to their opponent a little bit.
 
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Michael Shaver
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1) I understand that incorrect blocks will be played accidentally because it is a real-time game. It's also clear that the rules don't discuss what to do when that happens. I think real-time games specifically need rules for these situations because mistakes do happen. In turn based games you don't need anti-cheating rules because there is more time to notice the 'mistakes'.

2) As soon as you introduce an in game penalty (like points or health) then the action is no longer illegal (no longer cheating) and at some point the trade-off is going to be worth it. Further when you have two victory conditions a penalty which effects only one will make it a valid move without penalty for the other victory condition. The proposal below includes a penalty of both points and health which might work.

sedjtroll wrote:
What about this... after each round, as well as after a knockout, check all of the winner's punch piles and for each incorrect block, the winner gives up a health to the loser (and maybe also, incorrect blocks add instead of subtract judge points).

That way, if you do it on accident it's not THAT big a deal, and you can't really win the game from it, but if you do it on purpose then the penalty directly impacts your reason for doing it...


3) I don't really care about how thematic the penalty is. Gavan has designed a game with cards that represents boxing. He says this is how you represent punches... and you can only play a card on your side to block if...

Playing a card out side those rules whether intentional or not is like paying 4 wood in Agricola for a room instead of five or taking an action you can't perform to block it. It is ILLEGAL within the rules as written.

I'm fine about when teaching the game to "say hey wait up" and talk about the rules again or forgive a few mistakes in the first few rounds. After a few games you should be able to play by the rules. You only have 25 cards and we're talking about matching blue-blue or cross-cross.

In conclusion, I don't think a monetary penalty would work for me, however you could not play a tournament without some penalty. I like the Brawl rules of pick the card up and back up if you can, if you can't you loose the round. This allows you to catch it right away if your opponent squeezed a second punch onto the pile as you were playing your block making it incorrect, you just pick it up. And if you find it later, you have no way of knowing if someone was benefited from the incorrect block (combo or counter punch) so too bad for you. Those are the rules.
 
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