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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: Demo'ed Today at GenCon rss

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Alex
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I was thankful enough to the guys who were demoing the game when I walked up to let me take the stick of 2 TIE Fighters as we took on the Rebels. Here's what I can tell you about my experience. We played 6 TIE fighters taking on 3 X-Wings.

Three phases - Planning phase, then movement/action phase, then combat phase.

In the planning phase, you choose the maneuver that you want your fighters to make. As a TIE, I could make turns that the X-Wings could not (ex: sharp, tight turns), and vice versa. The main difference between X-Wing and it's closest analogue, Wings of War, is that there is no multiple-movement programming - you plan your one move for that turn.

The movement/action phase is just that - you move and take an action. Like Wings of War, you line up the template for your movement at the front of your fighter's base, then move the rear of the base to the front of the movement. The templates are large, and varied in their movement styles. If I recall correctly, the TIE fighters had a choice of 9-10 different moves. After the move, you can take an action. For TIE fighters, I could "barrel roll", which meant I could adjust my position horizontally in either direction after my movement (using another template). I could also "focus" on my defense or attack, which gives bonuses during combat. The Rebels were able to "lock on" to a given fighter as their actions or some other actions (not sure, honestly). The order of the movement and action is not up to chance - each fighter is assigned a number from 1-9, and they move in order.

The combat phase goes in reverse of the movement phase, from 9-1. Combat sets up like Wings of War, with a targeting cone at the front of every base. A rangefinder determines whether a target is close, medium or long range for weapons. If your target is in range and in your line of sight, then an attack occurs, based on an opposed roll of offensive vs. defensive dice. Admittedly, I wasn't quite sure how the number of dice was determined, but I believe at close range, the attacker gets an extra attack die, while at long range, they lose. Either way, the dice get rolled, and it's an opposed roll with attack symbols cancelling out. If the attacker ends up with more attack symbols (or critical hits) than the defender, then the defender takes damage, until their ship is destroyed. After combat, we started the whole thing over again.

The guy who ran the demo was not entirely sure what components were going to be in the box, but I'd like to think that there's going to be at least 2 X-Wings and 4 TIE Fighters in the initial set. It was plenty of fun, quick to understand and get in to, and definitely gave me a great feel for being in a space dogfight flying my TIEs against the Rebel fighters - as TIE Fighter was my favorite video game when I was younger, this is not surprising to me at all.

I don't see any reason (aside from an absolutely ridiculous price point) why this isn't going to be one the hottest selling games next year. I wish they'd hurry up and get it done before the holidays!
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Darren M
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Thanks for the demo report.

Pre-order pricing from Thoughthammer shows that it's going to be in the under $30 range which sounds reasonable. Of course it will probably have umpteen expansions at $15-$20 a pop as well but that's a given with FFG.

http://www.thoughthammer.com/product_info.php?products_id=85...
 
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Matt Lee
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*sigh*

Nobody even glanced at my comment in the pictures where I guessed this was how movement worked. Figures I'd be ignored as usual around here.

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1056212?commentid=2292300#com...
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Can you repair the TIE fighters?

(if the answer is "yes",it's a terrible mistake)
 
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Belsamoreth wrote:
Can you repair the TIE fighters?

(if the answer is "yes",it's a terrible mistake)


I demoed it as well, and I did not see that mechanic in play. Rebels might be able to repair their X-Wings, courtesy of their astromechs, but we didn't give our opponents a chance to try and just blew them out of the sky... devil
 
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Marcello Maimone
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Given that no designer is listed for this game (really strange..), and in this preview i read a lot of "like Wings of War"...i'll consider Andrea Angiolino and Piergiorgio Paglia as designers...i hope FFG will do the same..

In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.



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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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nexttothemoon wrote:
Thanks for the demo report.

Pre-order pricing from Thoughthammer shows that it's going to be in the under $30 range which sounds reasonable. Of course it will probably have umpteen expansions at $15-$20 a pop as well but that's a given with FFG.

http://www.thoughthammer.com/product_info.php?products_id=85...

At that price point, and with boards and cards in the mix, I'm betting you get one X-wing and two TIEs in the starter set. FFG (like everybody else) knows how to prise your wallet open.
 
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Stefano Bastianelli
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sdiberar wrote:
nexttothemoon wrote:
Thanks for the demo report.

Pre-order pricing from Thoughthammer shows that it's going to be in the under $30 range which sounds reasonable. Of course it will probably have umpteen expansions at $15-$20 a pop as well but that's a given with FFG.

http://www.thoughthammer.com/product_info.php?products_id=85...

At that price point, and with boards and cards in the mix, I'm betting you get one X-wing and two TIEs in the starter set. FFG (like everybody else) knows how to prise your wallet open.


There are math trades and trades to keep it closed
 
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Mcmurphy wrote:

In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.


I don't consider this a bad thing. I always hated the Damage cards anyway. With the future of WoW up in the air (yes, I meant that), it's good to know that style of game will continue.
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Riccardo Vadalà
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Biomage wrote:
Mcmurphy wrote:

In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.


I don't consider this a bad thing. I always hated the Damage cards anyway. With the future of WoW up in the air (yes, I meant that), it's good to know that style of game will continue.


You do not think a publisher should recognize the credits of the two authors of Wings of War if a game is based on their system?
And... who says WoW will not continue?
 
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Jeremy Likens
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Mcmurphy wrote:
Given that no designer is listed for this game (really strange..), and in this preview i read a lot of "like Wings of War"...i'll consider Andrea Angiolino and Piergiorgio Paglia as designers...i hope FFG will do the same..

In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.


Andrea said in a different thread that they're not involved with X-Wing.

angiolillo wrote:
The Jakster wrote:
Call it a hunch, but doesn´t this sound a bit like "X-Wing(s) of War"?


Well, in Spring 2007 FFG proposed to develope a "Wings of War Battlestar Galactica" while they were designing a Battlestar Galactica boardgame. I started working on it together with two other authors, one of which had already made a "WoW Space" proptotype before, but the project has been cancelled. A license for a "Wings of War Star Wars" was asked by FFG instead, and we started again working on that. This product seems a quite natural conclusion of that very long process, apart for the detail that WoW authors are not involved any more.

angiolillo wrote:
angiolillo wrote:
Well, in Spring 2007 FFG proposed to develope a "Wings of War Battlestar Galactica" while they were designing a Battlestar Galactica boardgame. I started working on it together with two other authors, one of which had already made a "WoW Space" proptotype before, but the project has been cancelled. A license for a "Wings of War Star Wars" was asked by FFG instead, and we started again working on that. This product seems a quite natural conclusion of that very long process, apart for the detail that WoW authors are not involved any more.


I have been asked to better explain my words, to avoid any misunderstanding.

What I meant to say is that it is several years that space-themed WoW versions (some inclunding asteroids...) are being worked on. And that FFG in particular has pursued this idea, adding strong SF licenses to it, at least from Spring 2007 to early 2011. They did not give up, even if both the projects that they proposed in the past were stopped. So it is natural that they are finally bringing to the market a dogfight miniature game as the one that is now being announced, even if not in connection with us as previously planned. A game that fits quite well in the same market niche as a would-be "WoW Star Wars", I would say reading its description.

What I did not mean to say is that, after giving up its idea of licensing WoW's game mechanics to develope its game crediting the design to Pier Giorgio Paglia and me, FFG is now using all or even part of our mechanics anyway without any license and without any credits. This would be of course something that I would never expect by such a company as Fantasy Flight Games.

I have no way to judge the similarities of this game system with mine or with any other dogfight miniature game system, having never tried or seen it. I have been assured that this new design uses an entirely different system from WoW, and that game reports from GenCon will very soon make it obvious to everybody.

Of course I would have preferred a Star Wars version of my game being released instead, but the agreement between the publishers failed for reasons I am external to.

I am sorry if my words, in a language that is not my native one, can be read by anybody as an accusation of unfair behaviour.
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Cristiano Cozzolino
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They may be not involved but looking at the demo video it seems really an adaptation of Wings of War. They just evolved the manouver cards to templates.
 
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Mcmurphy wrote:
In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.
That's been my impression, too, but I don't know WoW really well, having only read the rules but never played it.

I found it intriguing but since the theme didn't appeal to me, I passed.
Now, Star Wars, that's definitely a theme that appeals to me
 
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Jon Young
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Ok....I mean no offense to the designers of Wing of War with the following....I own the WWI and WWII base sets and love them.....

BUT

If the rules have been tweaked and things added/subtracted, then re-themed, its a different game. Wings of War is very similar to Blue Max and both versions of Crimson Skies, all of them have just been presented in different ways. All these games boil down to the same ideas....dog fight games, control of individual vehicles for maneuvers, secret planning of maneuvers. All of these game ideas can be tracked back to Blue Max if not an earlier game that I dont know about or own. I hope this all doesn't turn into a nasty fight of some kind.

I for one am excited by X-Wing and can wait to play it.
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Marcello Maimone
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I know that no game is really unique, and many things you see in one game..you can find in another one..

But..the fact here is that ffg was working WITH wings of war authors to do a space game...they tried to acquire the license for WoW mechanics..then something happened..and some month later they put this "X-Wing...s of War" on the market..

I always seen FFG as a great company doing great games, and so i want to know more about a behaviour that seems to me like...passing to the "Dark Side" of the design!

I'm just curious about it and want to know more..

Anyway i'm excited too for this game, and i hope everything will be cleared..

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Bernd Caspers
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Mcmurphy wrote:
Given that no designer is listed for this game (really strange..), and in this preview i read a lot of "like Wings of War"...i'll consider Andrea Angiolino and Piergiorgio Paglia as designers...i hope FFG will do the same..

In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.




And Wings of War is Blue Max without hexes and some extras...
Come on, get over your Italian pride and get a grip on reality, Italians didn´t invent the (gaming)world...
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Stefano Bastianelli
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The Jakster wrote:
Mcmurphy wrote:
Given that no designer is listed for this game (really strange..), and in this preview i read a lot of "like Wings of War"...i'll consider Andrea Angiolino and Piergiorgio Paglia as designers...i hope FFG will do the same..

In the end it seems to me like a Wings of War rethemed and enhanced with dice and actions.




And Wings of War is Blue Max without hexes and some extras...
Come on, get over your Italian pride and get a grip on reality, Italians didn´t invent the (gaming)world...


My friend, July 2006 is far away.
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Jon Young
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Mcmurphy wrote:
I know that no game is really unique, and many things you see in one game..you can find in another one..

But..the fact here is that ffg was working WITH wings of war authors to do a space game...they tried to acquire the license for WoW mechanics..then something happened..and some month later they put this "X-Wing...s of War" on the market..

I always seen FFG as a great company doing great games, and so i want to know more about a behaviour that seems to me like...passing to the "Dark Side" of the design!

I'm just curious about it and want to know more..

Anyway i'm excited too for this game, and i hope everything will be cleared..



I understand the sentiment. I just wanted to point out that there is way too many similarities between WoW and the old games. X-Wing isn't the only one that owes thanks to a previous game.
I have played WoW, Crimson Skies (both versions) and Blue Max. They are basically the same rules, just handled a bit differently, through hexes , manuevre codes, and damage chits or damage sheets, hex cards and click bases, or free movement cards and damage cards.
The reason I say this is that each game didn't give credit to the one before, and although it might have been nice, it isn't needed. Saying FFG is going to the 'Dark Side' of game design is kind of being a little melodramatic.
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Jon Young
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Madazam wrote:


My friend, July 2006 is far away.


I'm confused by this statement. Huh? blush

(Not that this is a first for me )

 
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Marcello Maimone
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The Jakster wrote:

And Wings of War is Blue Max without hexes and some extras...
Come on, get over your Italian pride and get a grip on reality, Italians didn´t invent the (gaming)world...


As i explained in the second message, this is not a question of normal similarity between games, or national pride..only curiosity about a situation never occured before with ffg (i don't know if happened before)

tredhed wrote:


I understand the sentiment. I just wanted to point out that there is way too many similarities between WoW and the old games. X-Wing isn't the only one that owes thanks to a previous game.
I have played WoW, Crimson Skies (both versions) and Blue Max. They are basically the same rules, just handled a bit differently, through hexes , manuevre codes, and damage chits or damage sheets, hex cards and click bases, or free movement cards and damage cards.
The reason I say this is that each game didn't give credit to the one before, and although it might have been nice, it isn't needed. Saying FFG is going to the 'Dark Side' of game design is kind of being a little melodramatic.


As i told before..i know.. and i can only repeat myself...it's strange only because they were working with the authors and then...bla bla bla..

The question of "dark side" was obviously a joke

...but i've seen other people arguing that ffg in the last months seems to have lost his "touch" and this situation could be another clue..

LordHellfury wrote:
I am very happy that FFG acquired the Star Wars license. I want to give the a congratulatory "Atta-boy!" pat on the back and buy their stuff when it comes out.

BUT (there is always a 'but' isn't there?)

Yoda: "A disturbance in good game design I sense . Yes young padawan, being ridden a fad is. A cooperative fad."

Admiral Ackbar: "It's a trap?"

Yoda: "Admiral, no. Falling towards the dark side of cash grabs a company is. The fail is strong with this one. Too much doing of the same thing over and over."

Princess Leia: "Help us non-cooperative games, you're our only hope."

Yoda: "Yes, Princess. Designed good games must be. The path of overdoing cooperatives the dark side lies. The path of recycled recent game design the dark side lies. The path FFG travels the dark side lies."


I hope i'm wrong and i wait to play those games, Wizwar and REX to prove it..
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Andrea Angiolino
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I will make my point of view clear again.
I have been offered by FFG to buy the "Wings of War" mechanics to use all or part of them in a Star Wars game called "X Wings", crediting it to Pier Gorgio and me and paying royalties on all "items that utilize any game mechanics from “Wings of War”", in their own words.
Before seeing any image or having any report of the game, I have been told by FFG that in the end they designed an *entirely different system* instead (their words again). I then decided not make my own judgement until I have a clear idea of how this new game looks and work.
My final opinion on this story will not be based on the fact that WoW has similarities with previous games or not - if FFG wanted to buy WoW's system it means that it was original enough to their eyes and interesting enough to them. My final opinion will be based on the fact that "X Wings" uses an *entirely different system* or "utilize any game mechanics from “Wings of War”".
Then, I am not a lawyer nor a judge. My opinion will be just this - a personal opinion. Everybody is free to judge things considering the same or different elements and make his own. No need to heat tones, isn't it?
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Christian T. Petersen
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Andrea,

Since you're bringing this up in a public venue, and as your English writing, while excellent, may be cause for subtle confusion, allow me to clarify this publicly.

1) As (for roughly 6 years) FFG had been publishing "Wings of War," I thought it would be an idea to explore licensing the WoW system from NG International so that X-Wing could live side by side this family.

2) I proposed such an idea to the CEO of NG international in March 2010 (as we were nearing a deal with Lucas). To be clear, we never approached you personally, or had even a single discussion with you personally on the subject. This was 100% exploratory discussions between NG and FFG on a high level, and we had/have no idea what the NG CEO was communicating to you.

3) FFG had serious reservations about using the WoW system, however, as we felt there was possibly other (new) systems that would be better for the speed-character-quantity driven universe of SW. I told this to the NG CEO from the very beginning, and let him know this was likely our preferred route. We never asked for any design work from you, nor did we ever see any designs from you. Also, we are unaware of any design for pilots, actions, etc in WoW, whatsoever. In other words, our main reason for exploring the WoW license idea was that we (at the time) had WoW in our catalog and that a good marketing synergy could exist, not because the system was necessarily a good fit.

4) Due to a series of NG decisions and events in the early Spring of '11, it became clear FFG would no longer be the publisher of WoW. This took away the principal reason why we would pursue a WoW license.

5) So, it was decided to not pursue the WoW system and to use the system we had under development, and that we preferred, instead.

There have been MANY dogfighting systems on the marketplace over the years (as mentioned above) and they all share core similarities due to their subject matter. The principal design behind WoW is that it uses cards for planning -- and the same cards for maneuvers. In fact, WoW was originally a card game (it still is, as the bestselling box continues to be the great "Famous Aces" card game) Other than the unique card-to-maneuver system, WoW uses elements (with a slight variations) found in other games (tokens to represent damage, special card to represent combat damage, etc) as mentioned by others above.

I (and FFG dev team) feel strongly that, other than sharing a core concept (dogfighting) there are virtually no similarities between the games. To illustrate:

Maneuvers.
- In WoW, you must search through a deck of cards to find maneuvers. These are then pre-programmed (2 at a time) on player reference sheets. The same card is then used to maneuver the card on the table. (the brilliant, defining invention of WoW, in my opinion).

- X-Wing uses maneuver dials (single order) in which an order is easily assigned to fighters in the playing area. Such programmed maneuver is then translated into real movement by an array of different-sized cardboard movement templates (allowing for much broader differentials in movement distances and turns).

In X-Wing: Depending on maneuver type, a fighter my be punished or rewarded. For example, very difficult maneuvers (printed in red on the dial) may prevent the fighter from taken its action that follows its movement. An easy maneuver (printed in green) may give a boon to a good pilot or specialized craft.

Damage
- WoW uses cards for damage, which is then tracked with tokens (and symbols)

- Xwing uses dice for damage, damage is tracked by cards (in case of a direct hit (as per a dice result), the card is flipped to show its "special damage" -- a system borrowed from our own WFRP RPG, also by Jay Little who designed X-Wing).

- In X-wing, some fighters have have shields (which, obviously, act as buffers, and rechargeable depending on craft and equipment).

- In X-wing, defending fighters (when attacked) roll defensive maneuvers with the dice (preventing possible damage), the higher the pilot skill, the more defensive dice are rolled.

Other unique X-Wing design points:
- X-Wing uses "Pilot skill" as its primary vehicle of initiative and other tests. In WoW, pilots have no relevance except for the name of the plane (I'm not aware of other rules that would change this).
- After each maneuver, every SW fighter has an "action" which can be derived from the Pilot, the craft, equipment (such as weapon systems, astromech droids), etc.
- X-wing is a point-based "army building" system, allowing players to combine pilots, equipment, and number of craft in any way they desire (there are some scenario limitations, but this is generally true).

There are other differences, but I hope the above are sufficient to make it clear that FFG has not stolen or borrowed ideas presented to us, nor that we are stealing ideas from WoW. FFG is extremely designer friendly and fair, and it is important for us that this is obvious.

Andrea, we are huge fans of WoW, and saddened to see the line go. I can understand the frustration of NG situation from your side, and I hope your great games will find suitable homes.

Best Wishes,

Christian T. Petersen
CEO
FFG
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Paul DeStefano
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Actually, it would seem X-Wing owes as much to Techno Witches as WoW.

As hundreds of other games, it has a gaming lineage. But is a new entity unto itself.
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Wow, a response from the FFG CEO. Im impressed, not only that he would clarify this for everyone that has been watching the discussion, but also that he is so active on these forums. Another reason to support FFG, in my opinion.

Now if he would only be so kind as to give some information about the Star Wars RPG that was mentioned...
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cyalume wrote:
Wow, a response from the FFG CEO. Im impressed, not only that he would clarify this for everyone that has been watching the discussion, but also that he is so active on these forums. Another reason to support FFG, in my opinion.

Now if he would only be so kind as to give some information about the Star Wars RPG that was mentioned...


..and while we have his attention in the thread (and completely off topic)... what is the status of Reins of Power?
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