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Subject: [WIP] Iron Game Designers - BSG: Express rss

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Alex Vandertol
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derrickec wrote:
I believe that specific Galactica locations are going to become a part of the official ruleset, as well as the extra player actions (Executive Decision and Jump Prep), but other than that the game will likely stay the same.


Will this change the artwork? I was planning on printing this in the next couple of weeks. I'll wait if it's going to change.

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derrickec wrote:
Glad you enjoyed it, Serjey! Do you have any other specific feedback from your group that you'd be able to share? I.e., what they really enjoyed, how close the games were, whether the humans or cylons won, if you were playing 3, 4, or 5 player games, etc.

I believe that specific Galactica locations are going to become a part of the official ruleset, as well as the extra player actions (Executive Decision and Jump Prep), but other than that the game will likely stay the same.

There are a lot of great ideas to expand this with (additional characters, additional Cylon cards, Presidential powers), but I think I'll wait to include those in an 'expansion' for the game.


I would agree with this. My suggestion to adding more crises on the dice doesn't add a whole lot to the game. I wanted the Admiral to have some setback with the responsibility of determining destinations.

One other point that was brought up: there aren't any Destiny Dice for skill checks. Perhaps two dice with values {-2, -1, 0, 0, 1, 2} that are rolled for Destiny? Once everyone has contributed to the skill check, both dice are rolled and added into the check. It's just another thought I had... it would take some of the certainty out of checks.

Also, I would recommend changing at least Adama's character power if you are implementing the Executive Order action.
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Evan Derrick
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mirrordude wrote:
derrickec wrote:
I believe that specific Galactica locations are going to become a part of the official ruleset, as well as the extra player actions (Executive Decision and Jump Prep), but other than that the game will likely stay the same.


Will this change the artwork? I was planning on printing this in the next couple of weeks. I'll wait if it's going to change.



Yeah, some of the artwork will change. Some descriptions here and there, some of the chits will change slightly. You can probably print now and not have to really worry about it. I may enlarge the Galactica damage spots on the board, because I'm fairly certain I'll have to make the damage chits larger to incorporate text, but if you printed right now all you'd really have to do is print off a handful of new chits.
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Evan Derrick
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Ripshawd wrote:
I would agree with this. My suggestion to adding more crises on the dice doesn't add a whole lot to the game. I wanted the Admiral to have some setback with the responsibility of determining destinations.


I agree on this point as well. I'm not sure they add anything significant.

Quote:
One other point that was brought up: there aren't any Destiny Dice for skill checks. Perhaps two dice with values {-2, -1, 0, 0, 1, 2} that are rolled for Destiny? Once everyone has contributed to the skill check, both dice are rolled and added into the check. It's just another thought I had... it would take some of the certainty out of checks.


I thought about this as well. However, there is a large amount of uncertainty just given the randomness of the dice rolls. Even if 5 human players are all submitting dice to a skill check with only 6 difficulty, there is still a chance they'll fail. That, to me, replicates the destiny deck uncertainty. If you're the fourth player submitting dice, do you overpower the skill check in case the fifth player rolls poorly? Or do you do just enough, hoping that they roll at least one positive die?

Quote:
Also, I would recommend changing at least Adama's character power if you are implementing the Executive Order action.


Yeah, his power will definitely change.
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Quote:
I thought about this as well. However, there is a large amount of uncertainty just given the randomness of the dice rolls. Even if 5 human players are all submitting dice to a skill check with only 6 difficulty, there is still a chance they'll fail. That, to me, replicates the destiny deck uncertainty. If you're the fourth player submitting dice, do you overpower the skill check in case the fifth player rolls poorly? Or do you do just enough, hoping that they roll at least one positive die?


It really comes down to the final person. The last person can completely determine the pass or fail (unless they have no other choice). That certainty allows players to hit crises values exactly.

For me, the dice more represent the variable draws players get. Do they draw colors that help or hurt the check? Ultimately, the last player can look at their roll and usually determine if they can pass or fail the check.


Also, for the Galactica damage, I just have "Damage Armor" on my tokens. They're fairly easy to remember what each one disallows. You could also change the Galactica board image to show the actions available (much like the board game) and when they are damaged, that action goes away.
 
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Evan Derrick
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Ripshawd wrote:
For me, the dice more represent the variable draws players get. Do they draw colors that help or hurt the check? Ultimately, the last player can look at their roll and usually determine if they can pass or fail the check.


Ok, I can see that. Perhaps this is something that can be playtested.
 
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Serjey Arnaut
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derrickec wrote:
Glad you enjoyed it, Serjey! Do you have any other specific feedback from your group that you'd be able to share? I.e., what they really enjoyed, how close the games were, whether the humans or cylons won, if you were playing 3, 4, or 5 player games, etc.


We've played ~20 games and humans won only 4 times.
Main problem - demoralization. If one is demoralized - fatal mistake is the restoration of his morale. Cos' if you fail, the we have two problems. So we are trying to resolve this demoralization crisis with all dices possible.
Next problem - Lora Roslin. Almost useless character.
Today i've made president title card with quorum cards. I've used idea proposed by Martin Dorrington, but i replaced "unsavory connections" with "Cylon photo" (You can look into one random loyalty card of any player, after that throw strong and weak dice, if sum is negative demoralize random player).
This thursday we will test this idea, with proposed optional action "jump preparation".

I strongly protest against the executive order and "various locations" damage.

1. Executive order - In "Big game" it looks ok, because various characters can do different actions according to skill cards. For example: one character can repair locations, another can pilot a fighter. That's ok, it was saving Galactica many times.
But in express edition, every character can do only 4 things - repair, de/re-moralize, hit DRADIS contacts, open his loyalty card. What is the idea of "executive order"?
- "Guys, i dont wanna repair galactica, you do this instead of me"?
- "Guys, i dont wanna hit DRADIS, you do this instead of me"?
- "Guys, i dont wanna de/re-moralize, you do this instead of me"?
- "Guys, i dont wanna open my loyalty card, you do this instead of me"?
It's useless idea.

2. Various damage locations. I done ~20 test sessions. Believe me, after "You are demoralized", the "Now you cant repair your damage/restore morale/hit dradis/cant jump" is the least thing i want hear from my human fellows.

When will you publish your game on bgg? I have cards russian-translated variant.

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Evan Derrick
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Thanks so much for the feedback, Serjey! That's great, great info. When you play the game next time, try removing the rule that if you fail to boost morale you have to draw another demoralized token. Instead, if you fail, nothing happens (like when you fail at shooting down Raiders or when you fail to repair Galactica). I've been suspicious that that rule was overpowered, and that aggressive Cylon players could easily win the game by demoralizing on purpose.

And let me know how playing with the 'President' rules goes. Roslin's special ability will probably be reworked, as this criticism has come up multiple times.

I submitted the game to the database last night, so after the backup due to all the admins being tied up with Essen lets up, it should be in there!
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Serjey Arnaut
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derrickec wrote:
Thanks so much for the feedback, Serjey! That's great, great info. When you play the game next time, try removing the rule that if you fail to boost morale you have to draw another demoralized token. Instead, if you fail, nothing happens (like when you fail at shooting down Raiders or when you fail to repair Galactica). I've been suspicious that that rule was overpowered, and that aggressive Cylon players could easily win the game by demoralizing on purpose.


Noooo.... Don't remove that))) Cos' i like it when i'm playing a cylon.
May be you can create a separate paragraph in the rules "Hardcore variant".

derrickec wrote:
And let me know how playing with the 'President' rules goes. Roslin's special ability will probably be reworked, as this criticism has come up multiple times.


Ok. We'll try both with/out the possible morale restore drawback. If the quorum dice will help, i think quick fix for the Roslin will be "You can lose President title if players will pass 6 (or 8) skill check."

P.S. Please check again my previous post. I've added my thoughts about executive order and "various locations" damage.

EDIT: I've just talked to my play-group, and we found another possible solution of "over-demoralizing problem":
1.In original game, there were some crisises which were moving player to brig.
2.In express edition, to brig someone is really expensive in dices. We had never move anyone to brig.
Solution: what if we provide a choice to current player to choose demoralize or move to brig random player?
 
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As I was the originator of the Executive Order and Damage Galactica ideas, here was my thought process behind it.

When you boil it down, the idea is the counter to the demoralized tokens. I found that, if a player starts their turn demoralized, they have few actions that are usually useful for them. The Executive Order allows them to pass their turn off to another player. The flip side of this is when there are no actions to take on the board (DRADIS is clear, Galactica is repaired, and there are no Demoralized tokens in play). The action allows you to give another player 2 dice back, which is also well used on a demoralized character.

The Galactica damage tokens turns Galactica into a dynamic game structure, rather than another counter. We have played a number of games where Galactica was damaged and people just didn't care. It doesn't matter until there are 3-4 damage tokens on Galactica. The same can almost be said for DRADIS, but the ships come more quickly, you can remove them more quickly, and the colony ships provide a bit of spice. I've been a huge fan of Galactica damage in the games I've played - I suggest you try it first.

As for the Morale Boost action, here's my suggestion: If you submit a negative die, you are demoralized (unless you are already demoralized, then nothing happens). It makes it much less advantageous for an unrevealed Cylon to attempt to Boost Morale and fail it, but there is still a consequence.

Also, my suggested change for Roslin helps to alleviate some of the Morale issues, as Roslin can remove 2 Demoralized tokes per Boost Morale action she takes.
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Evan Derrick
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Sorry Serjey, the Executive Decision and specific Galactica damage locations will surely make it into the final ruleset. Of course, you are by no means required to use them. Play the version of the game that you have the most fun with!
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Evan Derrick
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angel0ne wrote:
2.In express edition, to brig someone is really expensive in dices. We had never move anyone to brig.
Solution: what if we provide a choice to current player to choose demoralize or move to brig random player?


It IS expensive, although that isn't necessarily a bad thing. You'd better be sure before you chuck someone in the brig. It can also be expensive to brig someone in the original game.

We have tested different crises like the one you've mentioned. However, with the nature of the dice rolls, they don't work quite as well. Also, I'm quite reluctant to move away from the 6 sided dice, as the game becomes much more difficult to put together if you have to find blank indented 8 sided dice (currently, I only know one place to find them - old, thrifted copies of Jumanji).

I'll probably wait to include options like Presidential powers and new crisis dice in future 'expansions' (or let enterprising geeks like yourself come up with them and playtest them!).
 
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So how final would you say the files are at this point? Sounds like rules are still a bit in flux, but what about the graphics? Thinking I'll make a copy of this for my brother for Christmas but obviously want to get the most current version before I do. Still enjoying this game; keep it up!
 
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BTW, my local gaming store has blank 8-siders for sale. The faces are 1-inch across on a side. I don't think they're that hard to come by.

One thought that I had (and I'll just throw out there) is for there to be variance in the skill dice you have. Not each person has the same 4 skill dice at their disposal - there is a range of skill dice. Players 'draw' up to 4 skill dice at the start of their turn out of a bag of random remaining dice. When a die is used, it is returned to the bag.

You could include 'Treachery' dice that are all negative, dice with abilities (dice doubler like Establish Network, dice negation like Red Tape, Declare Emergency dice, etc.)

This might be an idea for a future 'expansion', but it's another way to make the game a bit more flushed out. It adds another layer of randomness to the game. Not that it needs it, but it's just another idea to throw into the pot.
 
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Serjey Arnaut
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Ripshawd wrote:
BTW, my local gaming store has blank 8-siders for sale. The faces are 1-inch across on a side. I don't think they're that hard to come by.

That's good for you buddy. I'm living in a deep s@#t and i had troubles while looking for 24 d6.

Ripshawd wrote:
One thought that I had (and I'll just throw out there) is for there to be variance in the skill dice you have. Not each person has the same 4 skill dice at their disposal - there is a range of skill dice. Players 'draw' up to 4 skill dice at the start of their turn out of a bag of random remaining dice. When a die is used, it is returned to the bag.

That's good idea cool We can adopt colors from the original game and each character would have specific dice colors. But if we will continue in such way - next step will be adopting specific crisises from original game. On one of the original variant photos i saw another express variant. It was replacement of board with smaller one(
nearly A4 format). And we will end up like this laugh.

Ripshawd wrote:
You could include 'Treachery' dice that are all negative, dice with abilities (dice doubler like Establish Network, dice negation like Red Tape, Declare Emergency dice, etc.)

Also great idea, but this game is already hard enough. Maybe we can use this dice with Cylon leader character? For example replace one player with Cylon leader which will get a secret plan?
 
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Evan Derrick
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Ripshawd wrote:
One thought that I had (and I'll just throw out there) is for there to be variance in the skill dice you have. Not each person has the same 4 skill dice at their disposal - there is a range of skill dice. Players 'draw' up to 4 skill dice at the start of their turn out of a bag of random remaining dice. When a die is used, it is returned to the bag.

You could include 'Treachery' dice that are all negative, dice with abilities (dice doubler like Establish Network, dice negation like Red Tape, Declare Emergency dice, etc.)


Oh man, that one hurts my head to think about. It would essentially upend the existing mechanics and introduce a whole slew of new balancing issues. If this was a game I was planning to bring to market, now is the part where I'd do my due diligence, design that out, and see how it played.

Certain color dice could only be used for certain actions, and players would be restricted in what they chose. This would 1) make the game much more like its big brother and 2) add in an additional layer of complexity. There would be some cool things you could do with the numbering on certain dice, and it might create some interesting decisions for the players.

The game plays well as currently designed, so I think I'll let that one sit on the burner for the future (or let someone else tackle the design and playtesting). Good ideas, though.

I'll be sure to include you in the design notes, Ripshawd, as most of your suggestions are making it into the game.
 
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Evan Derrick
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solclaim wrote:
So how final would you say the files are at this point? Sounds like rules are still a bit in flux, but what about the graphics? Thinking I'll make a copy of this for my brother for Christmas but obviously want to get the most current version before I do. Still enjoying this game; keep it up!


The game is in the queue for submission, and soon after that I hope to upload the final files. So you should definitely have them before Christmas!
 
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Joe Kundlak
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I would not complicate things with different skill dice...

This way (for me) you know what each player is capable of (the same basically) and yet the dice still give huge variants of results... During one roll streak you may fail miserably, even rerolling everything and next time you just submit that 3w die and you are happy
 
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angel0ne wrote:
Ripshawd wrote:
BTW, my local gaming store has blank 8-siders for sale. The faces are 1-inch across on a side. I don't think they're that hard to come by.

That's good for you buddy. I'm living in a deep s@#t and i had troubles while looking for 24 d6.

Ripshawd wrote:
One thought that I had (and I'll just throw out there) is for there to be variance in the skill dice you have. Not each person has the same 4 skill dice at their disposal - there is a range of skill dice. Players 'draw' up to 4 skill dice at the start of their turn out of a bag of random remaining dice. When a die is used, it is returned to the bag.

That's good idea cool We can adopt colors from the original game and each character would have specific dice colors. But if we will continue in such way - next step will be adopting specific crisises from original game. On one of the original variant photos i saw another express variant. It was replacement of board with smaller one(
nearly A4 format). And we will end up like this laugh.

Ripshawd wrote:
You could include 'Treachery' dice that are all negative, dice with abilities (dice doubler like Establish Network, dice negation like Red Tape, Declare Emergency dice, etc.)

Also great idea, but this game is already hard enough. Maybe we can use this dice with Cylon leader character? For example replace one player with Cylon leader which will get a secret plan?

If you're trying to be sarcastic, it isn't reading to me. This is just hurtful.

If you would like some blank d8's, I could pick them up for you and ship them your way, that is if you didn't have some witty retort to throw my way about shipping or fake benevolence or something.
 
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Yes, I agree that the different skill dice complicate the game more. It's just a suggestion that's been rattling around in my brain. I wouldn't separate the dice into different pools (i.e., sort them by color), but rather add them all to the same bag. And, I wasn't thinking they would have a large variance; most of them would be the current Strong and Weak dice. But, it's clearly an idea for another day or another game as every Tom, Dick, and Harry has decided to completely blast it.

I think the game is fine as it is, with the suggestions you've implemented along the way.
 
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Spencer C
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derrickec wrote:
me becomes much more difficult to put together if you have to find blank indented 8 sided dice (currently, I only know one place to find them - old, thrifted copies of Jumanji).


For what it's worth (doesn't really "fit" with this game, I imagine), a d8 can easily be simulated with three coins and a lookup table.
 
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UanarchyK wrote:


For what it's worth (doesn't really "fit" with this game, I imagine), a d8 can easily be simulated with three coins and a lookup table.


Because there are 10 kinds of people in the world: those that understand binary and those that don't.
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Serjey Arnaut
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UanarchyK wrote:
derrickec wrote:
me becomes much more difficult to put together if you have to find blank indented 8 sided dice (currently, I only know one place to find them - old, thrifted copies of Jumanji).


For what it's worth (doesn't really "fit" with this game, I imagine), a d8 can easily be simulated with three coins and a lookup table.


Those physics geeks are so geek. laugh
I've been trying once, but my friends not familiar with binary codes.
 
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Serjey Arnaut
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Ripshawd wrote:
If you're trying to be sarcastic, it isn't reading to me. This is just hurtful.

If you would like some blank d8's, I could pick them up for you and ship them your way, that is if you didn't have some witty retort to throw my way about shipping or fake benevolence or something.

I am really sorry about that.

About d8 - i've been trying to be sarcastic. BUT, "treachery dice" and different-color-skill dice are good ideas.
 
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Mark Chaplin
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With regards to the naming/rights issue, why not call the game Kobol, or Viper, or Adama, or Twelve Colonies, or simply Centurion?

Actually, FFG might knock all of these away from BGG with a legal club.


 
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