John Clark
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Canberra
ACT
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Actually, the question in the title is not quite right - it should be something like, "for which races do war suns work best?"

I know there are some players out there who rarely, if ever, get War Suns. If your answer to the question is "none - war suns stink for all races", then my question is, "for which races do war suns stink least?"

Here are my thoughts on a few races - feel free to disagree, and add your own thoughts!

Muat - this is a no-brainer.

Hacan - before Shards, I would have said yes, Hacan is one of the better War Sun races - they only need three techs, and importantly they start with the two yellow techs. However, the Hacan flagship provides viable alternative to a War Sun - crucially it has a movement of 2.

Jol-Nar - similar to Hacan, the flagship provides a viable alternative. Jol-Nar can get War Sun tech on the first round of the game, if they pick trade and someone else picks tech, but there are probably better options for early tech - XRD for one.

L1Z1X - probably not - DNs are going to be the basis of the fleet, and the techs should be bought to support that, not get War Suns.

Letnev - I'm undecided here, but leaning towards not - just too many techs required to get there ...

Sardakk - lots of opinions on this one. I think it depends a lot on what your opponents are doing. Tough to get the two yellow techs. However, Sardakk really lacks mobility and War Suns provide that - the
attraction is as much in the movement of 2 as the huge firepower. I would say that War Suns are sometimes a decent option for Norr.

Sol - I can't see any circumstance for Sol to get War Suns.

Mentak - start with 2 of the techs, so War Suns are viable for Mentak. The movement-2 flagship does negate some of the need, however.


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Clemens Auburger
Germany
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N'orr - They should focus on cheap units, such as destroyers and cruisers. The N'orr can hardly afford the war suns, and cheap units benefit more from the racial bonus. Only in long games with plenty of resources, the N'orr should build the d-cups of doom.

In my opinion, only the Muaat, Hacan and Jol-Nar should make war suns a priority. All others should just adapt to the situation on the gaming board. How many resources can be found? Do the neighbors tend to be aggressive? How many victory points need to be achieved? Who is likely to attack me and through which system? And finally: shouldn't my means of warfare be less apparent?
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Joni Happonen
Finland
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johnclark wrote:

L1Z1X - probably not - DNs are going to be the basis of the fleet, and the techs should be bought to support that, not get War Suns.


I totaly agree, one of the few races that should focus on DNs.

johnclark wrote:

Letnev - I'm undecided here, but leaning towards not - just too many techs required to get there ...


And this is second one. With duranium armor, race tech and flagship their fleet will beat two war suns with supporting units

johnclark wrote:

Sardakk - lots of opinions on this one. I think it depends a lot on what your opponents are doing. Tough to get the two yellow techs. However, Sardakk really lacks mobility and War Suns provide that - the
attraction is as much in the movement of 2 as the huge firepower. I would say that War Suns are sometimes a decent option for Norr.


Sardakk Nor is IMO no no for war suns. Massive swarm of small ships would do better. Get cybernetics and flagship so you figter start to hit on 6+. Also destroyer will wreck down most of the figter spams with automated defense turrets.

johnclark wrote:

Mentak - start with 2 of the techs, so War Suns are viable for Mentak. The movement-2 flagship does negate some of the need, however.


Mentak should focus on cruisers and destroyers due their racial ability. Lots of small figths early on is my favorite strategy with them.
 
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Ryan Caputo
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Overland Park
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Nor should get the Flag ship over War Suns with a cruiser/destroyer fleet look out!
 
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John Clark
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Jomps wrote:

Sardakk Nor is IMO no no for war suns. Massive swarm of small ships would do better. Get cybernetics and flagship so you figter start to hit on 6+. Also destroyer will wreck down most of the figter spams with automated defense turrets.


I am inclined to agree with you, but I'd like to argue the other side for a bit ...

The problem as I see it with the fighters is that Norr requires so many techs to make it work. In particular, Norr needs mobility, so they need either advanced fighters or XRD Transporters.

Remember that the Norr flagship has movement of one, so its not going to help much - the fleet is just too slow. There are several posts here which argue that the flagships with movement of two are heaps better than the others, and I agree.

XRD will require two techs for Norr, since they don't start with Antimass Deflectors. Cybernetics requires another tech, so that's three techs in total, which happens to be the same number needed for War Suns, so tech-wise the two approaches are the same.

In effectiveness, the fighters certainly gain a greater benefit than the War Sun does - with the Norr ability and Cybernetics they hit on 7, which is strong, provided they make it to the combat round.

So, the fighter strategy requires several Carriers plus a bunch of fighters. Let's assume that the opponent will counter with a fleet including 3 destroyers, with Hylar and ADT - each will hit an average of 1.5 fighters with anti-fighter barrage. Three of them will hit an average of 4.5 fighters.

Assuming that the opponent fleet has another ship or two (in addition to the destroyers), then you really need two carriers with 8 fighters (and a few GF for invasion) to compete, which will cost almost the same as a War Sun.

I'm not arguing that War Suns are better than fighters for Norr - the Norr fleet will always have fighters - but I don't think that its such an obvious choice - it does depend on what the opponents are doing and how many resources you have.

Remember the crucial benefit of War Suns for Norr is NOT the +1 to rolls but the fact that they have movement of 2, and are tanks.
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Brian Petersen
United States
Texas
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I've only ever had War Suns as Naalu (through the law), and I was playing them very wrong so I could meet my SO (Diversified). I had the money and sensed no attacks in the near or long-term future. I won the game, but the War Sun only fought one battle, in which the enemy retreated. It was mostly the void of space between me and Nekro and my other neighbor being very peaceful that won me the game.

Statistics arguments don't work very well if they don't represent real situations. My game group tends to have 1 Destroyer per fleet when defending, and 3 when attacking, which are taken as casualties immediately after fighters. So when attacking, the N'orr lose 1-2 fighters through pre-combat, and hit harder than the enemies destroyers. When defending, those 6 PDSs will take out some destroyers unless the enemy is bringing 2 carriers (since Stasis Capsules units shouldn't be enough to take out the N'orr's planets).

If we assume that the law comes up that lets everyone at the table have War Suns without getting techs, the Ghosts of Creuss have the clear advantage, followed by anyone able to get Lightwave Deflectors and increased movement.

Assuming people have to actually attain the techs, the Jol-Nar are great, but I would rather have Assault Cannons, X-89, and Dacxive Animators as a cherry on top than War Suns. The Hacan also gravitate towards War Suns, since they too can get Nano Tech on Round 1 and love DSC. For both races, I would avoid getting the tech or the unit until the majority of my plastic is on the board.

The Mentak can do great with War Suns after both of their racial techs, and hopefully a stored up Sabotage. Remember that the Mentak are limited to 8 Destroyers and 8? Cruisers and only receive 2 pre-combat shots, regardless of number of ships in the system. 2 per fleet for 8 total fleets leaves plenty of room for a War Sun to win the remaining battle.

I'm paranoid of ACs, so Nano-Tech is always my first goal if I must build sustain damage units or start with 2 of the pre-reqs.
 
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Joni Happonen
Finland
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johnclark wrote:

The problem as I see it with the fighters is that Norr requires so many techs to make it work. In particular, Norr needs mobility, so they need either advanced fighters or XRD Transporters.

Remember that the Norr flagship has movement of one, so its not going to help much - the fleet is just too slow. There are several posts here which argue that the flagships with movement of two are heaps better than the others, and I agree.

XRD will require two techs for Norr, since they don't start with Antimass Deflectors. Cybernetics requires another tech, so that's three techs in total, which happens to be the same number needed for War Suns, so tech-wise the two approaches are the same.

In effectiveness, the fighters certainly gain a greater benefit than the War Sun does - with the Norr ability and Cybernetics they hit on 7, which is strong, provided they make it to the combat round.

So, the fighter strategy requires several Carriers plus a bunch of fighters. Let's assume that the opponent will counter with a fleet including 3 destroyers, with Hylar and ADT - each will hit an average of 1.5 fighters with anti-fighter barrage. Three of them will hit an average of 4.5 fighters.

Assuming that the opponent fleet has another ship or two (in addition to the destroyers), then you really need two carriers with 8 fighters (and a few GF for invasion) to compete, which will cost almost the same as a War Sun.

I'm not arguing that War Suns are better than fighters for Norr - the Norr fleet will always have fighters - but I don't think that its such an obvious choice - it does depend on what the opponents are doing and how many resources you have.

Remember the crucial benefit of War Suns for Norr is NOT the +1 to rolls but the fact that they have movement of 2, and are tanks.


Very valid points. And I have to admit the figter example was a bit too ideal/optimal situation since it also requires multiple techs. And what comes to flagship, the speed of 1 is totaly a nuisance.

Biggest issue for me with war suns is that they requires multiple techs and they are so expensive. I also tend to lean more on the non militaristic technology strategy with Nor (enviro, sarween, antimass, XRD). Spamming fast destroyers and cruisers early on to hinder the top players expansion is more to my taste (Using those 12 resources to build 8 destroyers and 2 cruises). By pestering the races that are aiming for the warsuns early on might force them to drop their warsun fleet plans, since they have to deal with the smaller and cheaper fleets before they get there. Obviously destroyer/cruiser is not valid option when people turtle. But as Brian said it always depend on the situation and of the other players.

TomBoombs wrote:

The Mentak can do great with War Suns after both of their racial techs, and hopefully a stored up Sabotage. Remember that the Mentak are limited to 8 Destroyers and 8? Cruisers and only receive 2 pre-combat shots, regardless of number of ships in the system. 2 per fleet for 8 total fleets leaves plenty of room for a War Sun to win the remaining battle.


True also. Mentak with both race techs and transfabrication won't have to worry about resources to tech up and build bigger or valuable fleet. Even the cats will be jealous!
 
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Joni Happonen
Finland
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It really always depends of the situation!

We were playing 3-player game yeasterday and I was controlling Winnu. My enemies had Sol and Letnev.

As I stated earlier, I usualy don't build warsuns. But in this game I felt that I had no other choice. Letnev player was massing DN fleet with flagship and race tech as well as duranium armour tech. Sol's section of galaxy was swarming of ground forces and flagship to deliver them all at will.

So I ended up in situation where I would have been seriously disadvantaged in spacebattles against Letnev and no means to really invade Sol players planet if he would have wanted so whitout heavy bombardment.

It was great epic game whit lots of battles and scheming, and the winner was not guaranteed to anyone untill the last turn. I ended up winning the game, but sol and letnev was right behind me at the scoring track.

Best part of the game was my opponents way of denying me from my secret objective (control mecatol rex and have 6 ground forces and spacedock in here). I had my massive fleet there and 6 ground forces, but then started the signal jamming that lasted 3 round and ended up in team execution of my army.

Game had so many unexpected twists! Defenitely one of the most thrilling games I have played.

 
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