Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Elder Sign» Forums » Rules

Subject: Ok so to be clear...Once per turn means rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dave Hamson
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
When any investigators card says their ability is once per, it really means it is once per day is that correct? Also, for the characters that have abilities that are once per day, can they use their ability during any players turn?

Assuming once per turn is really once per day, I wonder how many players were making the game too easy by using those abilities too often, thus making the game seem like a cake walk.

Fantasy Flight really dropped the ball on the wording here it seems.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Cook
United Kingdom
Burton on Trent
Staffs
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I played this for the first time yesterday and I had one of those investigators that allows a "once per turn" ability. We decided the card actually meant once per round - i.e. starting from my turn, through all other players (we were 5) having their turn and back to the very start of my turn again, I could use that ability only once - but,at any time I desired.

Agree that the wording is very ambiguous...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul Clarke
United Kingdom
Norfolk
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Once per turn means the effect takes place whilst you are having your turn. If you play solo, like I do, then this would mean every turn, so it has been re-interpreted to mean once per day. It's an ambiguity that affects the scalability of the game, and should really have been cleared up when playtesting!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Fisk
United Kingdom
Stoke on Trent
Staffordshire
flag msg tools
Come on you Seagulls! Sami Hyppia's Blue & White army!
badge
That's weird. This bit used to mention Shire Games, and tell you all how wonderful we are. But it seems to have got deleted. Let's see what happens this time ....
mbmbmbmbmb
jerseydvd wrote:
If you can use it once per turn, I'd assume it means your turn.


Normally I'd agree.

The problem with the card we (I was in the same game as Neil above) had was that the card said something like:

"Once per turn, you may reroll a couple of dice to help the Active player complete a task".

This wording makes it sound like you can use it on others' turns too ...




N.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hamson
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So...once per turn means once per that investigators turn, with the exception of Mandy Thompson where once per turn actually means once per day? Is that right?

I feel like I am losing my sanity just trying to decipher the games rules.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Packard
United States
Palmdale
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
A few weeks ago I played this (for the only time that I've played it so far, so I'm no expert), with Kevin Wilson hosting. I asked him this specific question, and he said that yes, it definitely means once per round.

He said that there is an official errata soon to be released (perhaps it already has?), and that this is one of a few ambiguous terms that will be corrected in the errata.

Edit: I almost forgot -- yes, Mandy's ability and others like hers can be used on other people's turns; not just her own, and not just on herself.

Edit #2: Oops. See my post below for more information on this.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Sinelli
United States
Macomb
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Not so sure "once per round" helps much as a definition if you are playing solo with one investigator. I suppose you could default to "at midnight" in this case. Seems to me that playing with four investigators (even solo) smooths out most of the ambiguities and questions people are having with investigators' special abilities and when they apply.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Currently Out Of Service Leave a Message at the Meep
United States
Parker
Colorado
flag msg tools
Should I eat the Cuttlefish and Asparagus or the Vanilla Paste?
mbmbmbmbmb
To help me remember, I committed sacrilege and wrote (*Once per day) on the cards for Carolyn Fern, Vincent Lee, and Mandy Thompson, as their abilities can screw things up in a two-player game as well. For Kate Winthrop, I wrote in (*Once per day excluding Midnight effects) for her monster ability, as her abilities go from okay to insanely powerful depending on her turn position (for example, if she's the last player to go in a 4-player game, she can nullify all Mythos and Midnight monsters, as opposed to if she went first. That's just lame.) I haven't tried her revised card out yet, but nullifying monsters only once per day at my discretion instead of all damn day makes her more interesting to me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hamson
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Skwib wrote:
For Kate Winthrop, I wrote in (*Once per day excluding Midnight effects) for her monster ability, as her abilities go from okay to insanely powerful depending on her turn position (for example, if she's the last player to go in a 4-player game, she can nullify all Mythos and Midnight monsters, as opposed to if she went first. That's just lame.) I haven't tried her revised card out yet, but nullifying monsters only once per day at my discretion instead of all damn day makes her more interesting to me.


Good lord, I didn't even think about this problem with Kate yet, haven't had a chance to play her character. I'm guessing FFG didn't play with her much either, in fact...did they even play this game?

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Ries
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wait. I have only played solo.

I read it that you advance the clock at the end of your turn. So, after advancing the clock, I would trigger my character's once per turn effect before moving. Not only after midnight.

Is that correct?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Currently Out Of Service Leave a Message at the Meep
United States
Parker
Colorado
flag msg tools
Should I eat the Cuttlefish and Asparagus or the Vanilla Paste?
mbmbmbmbmb
magehammer wrote:
Wait. I have only played solo.

I read it that you advance the clock at the end of your turn. So, after advancing the clock, I would trigger my character's once per turn effect before moving. Not only after midnight.

Is that correct?


That is how the rules are written. However, with less than four characters in play, it makes certain characters way too strong, if not invincible. See this thread:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/699351/vincent-lee-vs-it...

The fix for this is to note that Vincent Lee, Mandy Thompson, Carolyn Fern and Kate Winthrop can only use their abilities once per day, not per turn.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Foley
United States
Abington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Skwib wrote:
The fix for this is to note that Vincent Lee, Mandy Thompson, Carolyn Fern and Kate Winthrop can only use their abilities once per day, not per turn.


With Kate, I like to play her ability doesn't apply to the mythos 'phase'. Of course, that's not as simple as just saying once per day, but I think that makes her ability too weak. Thematically, I like the mythos solution better, too.

EDIT: amending my post, playing Kate as once a day could actually still make her too strong . She could avoid adventures with monsters as rewards, and then use her ability on every mythos card. Definitely planning to stick with the mythos exception.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Hall
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Perhaps FFG didn´t playtest with 1 (to 3) investigators to see how certain skills or attributes would work.

from page 5:
Quote:
Elder Sign is played over a number of turns, starting with
the first player and continuing clockwise around the table.
The player who is currently taking his turn is referred to as
the active player.


Continuing on page 5:
Quote:
During each player’s turn he performs the
following steps:
1. Move: The active player moves his Investigator marker to
either an Adventure card or the Entrance reference sheet.
2. Either Resolve an Adventure or Wait at the Entrance:
The active player either rolls dice to complete the tasks on the
Adventure card he is on or, if he is instead on the Entrance
reference sheet, performs one of the activities listed on the sheet.
3. Advance the Clock: The active player moves the clock hand
on the Clock and each time the Clock returns to midnight, he
draws and resolves a Mythos card.


In a turn, you move (or not), you act (or wait) and move the clock. By this definition, in a single investigator game, the lone investigator will always be the active player in all "turns."

"Once per turn" in a one-investigator game means 4 times (the midnight turn, the 3, the 6 and the 9) before the next midnight. It is really simple and I'm confounded by why this is so difficult for people to understand. That is the literal reading of the rules.

So, clarification isn't necessary. An adjustment - perhaps.But, I think it's pretty clear: probably little playtesting with one investigator. The rules are straight forward.

edit: I posted this in another thread, sorry.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gareth Roberts
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
WhiteKnight85 wrote:
A few weeks ago I played this (for the only time that I've played it so far, so I'm no expert), with Kevin Wilson hosting. I asked him this specific question, and he said that yes, it definitely means once per round.

He said that there is an official errata soon to be released (perhaps it already has?), and that this is one of a few ambiguous terms that will be corrected in the errata.

Edit: I almost forgot -- yes, Mandy's ability and others like hers can be used on other people's turns; not just her own, and not just on herself.


Once per round= once round the clock? I would assume so. A round does not mean 1 unit it means a group of units comprising a whole doesnt it?

Like you have 5 questions (turns) in a quiz show round. Each round is delineated with a mythos draw.

That's what I'm running with.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith Collins
United States
Seymour
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
But with more than 4 players, a round is more than "at midnight". So if your definition was once per day, you could use the ability twice before your next turn came in an 8 player game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Packard
United States
Palmdale
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ilovedawkins wrote:
WhiteKnight85 wrote:
A few weeks ago I played this (for the only time that I've played it so far, so I'm no expert), with Kevin Wilson hosting. I asked him this specific question, and he said that yes, it definitely means once per round.

He said that there is an official errata soon to be released (perhaps it already has?), and that this is one of a few ambiguous terms that will be corrected in the errata.

Edit: I almost forgot -- yes, Mandy's ability and others like hers can be used on other people's turns; not just her own, and not just on herself.


Once per round= once round the clock? I would assume so. A round does not mean 1 unit it means a group of units comprising a whole doesnt it?

Like you have 5 questions (turns) in a quiz show round. Each round is delineated with a mythos draw.

That's what I'm running with.


By "round" I meant each of the investigators taking one turn.

However (and man, I hate saying this) I've been questioning my memory. The more I think about it, the more I think that Kevin said once per day (4 clicks of the clock) not once per round (each player having one turn). The stupid thing is that I can't remember for sure which he said.

I originally thought I had the definitive answer, straight from the horse's mouth. But due to my poor memory I'm adding nothing to this conversation.

We started the game with 5 players, but one had to leave soon after we started, so most of the game we played with 4 players. That's where my memory is having a problem -- with 4 players one round = one day.

Sorry. blush
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Hall
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess I see a fire and think "kerosene."

I don't think there is any mention of round in the cards or rulebook. Can you point one out to me? The cards say "once per turn." A turn is clearly defined as a series of three actions performed by an investigator: move(or not), attempt an adventure card (or wait at the entrance) and move the clock forward one spot (there are only four valid spots on the clock: 12,3,6,9)

Can anyone provide a specific card or rule that uses the term round? I searched the .pdf rule book for the word "round" and found no reference to that term.

And by the way, I've never taken the clock to be representive of a "day" - it's an abstract time concept. It's four investigator turns before a mythos card. Instead of using something like a turn track, they used a clock for theme. Does it work? Yes, if people stop thinking about it in terms of a "day."

What I find fascinating about this hobby is the swiftness at which players - who usually fail to accurately read the rulebooks - declare a game "broken" or a rule "too powerful." This discussion is a classic example.

Boiled down, this game is an interesting co-op. There are things like locked dice and spells that affect everyone. However, each player turn is compact and resolved - there is virtually no player overlap. I think this idea is confusing for people and leading to this notion of a round being 4 turns. Again, there is no concept or wording refering to a "round" in this game.

The idea that an attribute would be available once in four player turns (the idea you refer to as a "day") just seems wrong to me. There is very little in the way of player interaction from turn to turn. The only direct player interaction is when investigators are sharing a space (and using assist) or on future turn, when a spell is cast and another active player uses it. So, mechanically once per 4 turns seems punative. Perhaps intended, but punative.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Hall
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
With Kate, I like to play her ability doesn't apply to the mythos 'phase'. Of course, that's not as simple as just saying once per day, but I think that makes her ability too weak. Thematically, I like the mythos solution better, too.

EDIT: amending my post, playing Kate as once a day could actually still make her too strong . She could avoid adventures with monsters as rewards, and then use her ability on every mythos card. Definitely planning to stick with the mythos exception.



I played a solo investigator with Kate with rules AS WRITTEN and I lost to Yig. It comes down to choices and completeing the tasks. Powerful, yes. But the ability to supress monsters doesn't mean an automatic win for Kate. Some adventure cards are hard to win without items. No monsters = no monster trophies = harder to get items at the entrance.

Seriously, Kate needs to win adventure cards to get items. The ability to supress a monster has an economic effect on the game. It's taking those points out of the mix.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gareth Roberts
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Hawaiiirish wrote:
I guess I see a fire and think "kerosene."

I don't think there is any mention of round in the cards or rulebook. Can you point one out to me? The cards say "once per turn." A turn is clearly defined as a series of three actions performed by an investigator: move(or not), attempt an adventure card (or wait at the entrance) and move the clock forward one spot (there are only four valid spots on the clock: 12,3,6,9)

Can anyone provide a specific card or rule that uses the term round? I searched the .pdf rule book for the word "round" and found no reference to that term.

And by the way, I've never taken the clock to be representive of a "day" - it's an abstract time concept. It's four investigator turns before a mythos card. Instead of using something like a turn track, they used a clock for theme. Does it work? Yes, if people stop thinking about it in terms of a "day."

What I find fascinating about this hobby is the swiftness at which players - who usually fail to accurately read the rulebooks - declare a game "broken" or a rule "too powerful." This discussion is a classic example.

Boiled down, this game is an interesting co-op. There are things like locked dice and spells that affect everyone. However, each player turn is compact and resolved - there is virtually no player overlap. I think this idea is confusing for people and leading to this notion of a round being 4 turns. Again, there is no concept or wording refering to a "round" in this game.

The idea that an attribute would be available once in four player turns (the idea you refer to as a "day") just seems wrong to me. There is very little in the way of player interaction from turn to turn. The only direct player interaction is when investigators are sharing a space (and using assist) or on future turn, when a spell is cast and another active player uses it. So, mechanically once per 4 turns seems punative. Perhaps intended, but punative.


The word 'round' came from a user quoting (or perhaps not) Kevin Wilson.

The reason I then interpreted a 'round' into 4 turns was becasue the word is new to the discussion (and quite probably a red herring) so had to be attached to something, I believe the defintion of round to be multiple repetitions ( ofthe 3 stages that constitute a turn) delineated by something and the only delineator here is the mythos draw.

Perhaps this is Arkham preceoncetption kicking in, as in Arkham for the most part each power gets 1 shot per mythos card.

Also there is clearly some kind of a problem, at curren Vincent Lee will always defeat Itahqua due to his regen speed (no matter what size team he is on) this is surely wrong!

Either Vincent is too strong or Mr Gale Force Icy Winds is too weak.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Hamson
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I think one of the issues here is that with the rules as written, certain characters in solo games can not be defeated by certain GOO. Example Vincent Lee vs. Ithaqua. This cannot be by design.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Hall
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Zadok13 wrote:
I think one of the issues here is that with the rules as written, certain characters in solo games can not be defeated by certain GOO. Example Vincent Lee vs. Ithaqua. This cannot be by design.


Perhaps. But, my point is this: it's how the rules are written. There is a fair amount of speculation (and attempted interpretation) about what the rules are supposed to mean.

I love BGG and the community but I have to admit that I occassionally tire of speculation and "what did the designer mean?" This is not a bad rule book. It is actually very clear about what to do, when to do it and how to resolve it. It takes a reading comprehension level over 9th grade to get it, sure, but it's all in there. Not one point is unclear. Unpopular? Sure. Not happy with the game. Okay. The rulebook is not to blame. Unless it's Fields of Fire. And in that case, it IS the rulebook.

I'm going to be interested to see how Kevin, et al, handle this with FAQs. Since we are all spectulating, I would anticipate seeing something specific to one-investigator games. A patch, if you will.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Hall
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ilovedawkins wrote:
Also there is clearly some kind of a problem, at curren Vincent Lee will always defeat Itahqua due to his regen speed (no matter what size team he is on) this is surely wrong!


Actually that is not true. Ithaqua hits for 2 SAN and Vincent Only heals 1 for each of his turns. In an 8 investigator game, Ithaqua hits for 4 points of SAN before Vincent can heal up.

In a four investigator game, Ithaqua will hit for 2 and Vincent can heal one on his active turn.

Even in a three investigator match, the following would happen:

1. Vincent
2. Pete
3.Joe
4. Vincent (4 SAN)
*Ithaqua attacks -2 SAN
1. Pete
2. Joe
3. Vincent (3 SAN, (-2 for the attack, + 1 for the ability)
4. Pete
*GOO Attack -2
1. Joe
2. Vincent (2 San, -2 for the attack, +1 for the ability)
3. Pete
4. Joe

Vincent will eventually succumb - it's math.

In a one or two investigator game, Vincent heals at a rate that overcomes the attack.

So, no, he's not invincible at any group level.



(edited a mistake)


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Packard
United States
Palmdale
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
1. Kevin Wilson said that there are some errors in the wording on the cards, which are to be corrected when an official FFG FAQ comes out "soon". For reference, Kevin said this to my group on September 3, 2011.

2. One of the errors he specifically pointed out was the "once per turn" phrase that we've been discussing on this thread.

3. I used the term "round" above as a simple English word, much like the rest of the words in all of my sentences. I was not quoting from the rulebook, nor did I intend for people to think that I was. To me in gaming, the generic word "round" means the period of time in which each player takes one turn, in games where players take turns sequentially, such as Elder Sign. If my use of the word is flawed, let me know so I can improve my grammar in the future.

4. I muddied the waters shamefully by forgetting the key word (day vs. round) of Kevin's explanation of how it should be played, and I continue to apologize for that. But at least I'm not a jerk, and admitted my potential error, rather than insisting that what I first said is canon as per the designer.

5. While I'm at it, I will say that Kevin called 4 clicks of the clock (i.e., 4 player turns) as being "one day". I asked why four turns of 3 hours each = one 24 hour period ("one day"). He shrugged it off with saying it is because all the action takes place at night, and nothing happens during the day.

Frankly, I find that thematically unsatisfying, but it's really helpful as a game mechanic to make sure that certain things happen with the proper frequency, regardless of the number of players. So I don't have a problem with the 4 turns = 1 day thing. I wonder if it would have made game problems if they said that 1 turn = 15 minutes, and certain things could be done once per hour, rather than once a day -- and every time the clock chimed out the hour, it would trigger the effects that are currently triggered by "at midnight" events. Just a thought. Don't mind me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jon Hall
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
WhiteKnight85 wrote:
Frankly, I find that thematically unsatisfying, but it's really helpful as a game mechanic to make sure that certain things happen with the proper frequency, regardless of the number of players. So I don't have a problem with the 4 turns = 1 day thing. I wonder if it would have made game problems if they said that 1 turn = 15 minutes, and certain things could be done once per hour, rather than once a day -- and every time the clock chimed out the hour, it would trigger the effects that are currently triggered by "at midnight" events. Just a thought.


I actually think that clock suffers from "theme overproduction." I think that if it had been something like an abstract wheel or track there would have been very little discussion about what each little block represented (in terms of time).

A completely different variant to this would be a riff on what they do in Mansions of Madness: each GOO has a mythos number (for Ithaqua, let's say the number is 4). Each time an investigator takes the role as active player, s/he places a chip on GOO card. When the number of chips equal the mythos number, draw and play a card. Additionally, this occurance would trigger the (now called) "midnight events."

Perhaps each investigator gets a variable number of chips. Vincent Lee gets 3. When he spends his last one, he's done until all other players have spent theirs. Players wouldn't necessarily have to play in a particular order: the co-op aspect of these "active player chips" would require some coordination and planning ala Defenders of the Realm.

kind of straying from the topic, but wanted to add to what you said.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gareth Roberts
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Hawaiiirish wrote:
ilovedawkins wrote:
Also there is clearly some kind of a problem, at curren Vincent Lee will always defeat Itahqua due to his regen speed (no matter what size team he is on) this is surely wrong!


Actually that is not true. Ithaqua hits for 2 SAN and Vincent Only heals 1 for each of his turns. In an 8 investigator game, Ithaqua hits for 4 points of SAN before Vincent can heal up.

In a four investigator game, Ithaqua will hit for 2 and Vincent can heal one on his active turn.

Even in a three investigator match, the following would happen:

1. Vincent
2. Pete
3.Joe
4. Vincent (4 SAN)
*Ithaqua attacks -2 SAN
1. Pete
2. Joe
3. Vincent (3 SAN, (-2 for the attack, + 1 for the ability)
4. Pete
*GOO Attack -2
1. Joe
2. Vincent (2 San, -2 for the attack, +1 for the ability)
3. Pete
4. Joe

Vincent will eventually succumb - it's math.

In a one or two investigator game, Vincent heals at a rate that overcomes the attack.

So, no, he's not invincible at any group level.



(edited a mistake)




yah I had mental fail there, well I was posting from the office and not focussed... at least that's my excuse.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.