Juha Kettunen
Finland
Joensuu
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There are (mostly) symmetrical war/political games, like Twilight Struggle. Then there are games with some asymmetry, like Labyrinth or Washington's War. Then there are games with lots of asymmetry, like Wilderness War. Then there is... Maria.
I just played my first game. All three of us were first timers and I played Austria. I feel like I've just been gangraped by an elephant and a rhino. I achieved exactly nothing; I lost every battle, won zero political cards and failed to cause any harm at all with my hussars.
I see there are other threads about balance issues here, but I don't want to read them, for fear of spoilers. You see, almost always, a game interests me as long as I feel there are new things to learn and new strategies to try. Right now, stunned after my first game, I can't think of a single approach I could try to at least come close to Austria's opponents. Austria's situation seems totally hopeless.
The purpose of this thread is not to find readily digested recipes for play. I'm sure this game wouldn't be this high on BGG's wargame list, if the design was no good. I'm looking for some kind of hints as to whereabouts I should focus my thinking. It seems to me that the setup being what it is, diplomacy must be the key. With no diplomacy, Prussia and France can and will simply walk over Austria; which one wins, depends on cards drawn and such. Austria's only ally can't even enter Bohemia and has its own race of conquest to win in Flanders.
What would motivate France or Prussia to agree to anything Austria can offer?
How can surrounded Austria defend against four enemies?
How the hell can Austria possibly conquer anything and win?
What am I missing?
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Alex P
France
Paris
Ile-de-France
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Zelroy wrote: What would motivate France or Prussia to agree to anything Austria can offer?
As soon they realize that they lose, if the other one wins: they'll deal.
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J Wire
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
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Don't go toe to toe with France and Prussia, even if you have the cards. On the Flanders map work closely in strategy with the Prags to put a ton of pressure on France, which may have to send an army across to hold the electors and French fortresses.
In the east, Prussia has a single supply. Between the Hussars and a flanking threat to grab that supply you can generally slow them down considerably without any major fight. If you can't get up to the supply and Prussia breaks past, you are in position to grab Saxony fortresses and even threaten Prussian fortresses.
Avoidance and threat is the key to Austria. Work a strategy with the Prags to keep France in check, defend only as much as necessary (retreat on a 1 loss even if you feel you can win that battle, retaining cards means you can continue retreating/slowing advances. Winning a battle can only score you a point or two, and leaves you very vulnerable.
In time the cards advantage goes to Austria. France has two fronts on which to spend their cards, Prussia has a single supply and less cards per turn, Austria will go ahead on cards with conservation and careful movement Yes, they too have a second front but it requires much less cards compared to French expenditures holding off Prags, so set up a situation where Prags have a great run on France . . . it will help you hold French advances in Austria as France spends cards fighting the Prags.
Remember, you don't get any points by saving your own fortresses. Slow down their advances just enough to allow you to grab the points you need to win.
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Michael Kotsarinis
Greece
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It would take a long essay to answer your questions in a satisfactory way and I am sure that many experienced players will give you some sound advice.
I will only say that the first step in enjoying the game is to realise that it's not Austria vs the others but each player plays to win for himself. I believe the most difficult part is for the "schizofrenic" player to realise that he is not the Prussian player but the player that controls both Prussia and the Pragmatics and a Pragmatic victory is as good for him as a Prussian victory.
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J Wire
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
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Zelroy wrote:
What would motivate France or Prussia to agree to anything Austria can offer?
How can surrounded Austria defend against four enemies?
How the hell can Austria possibly conquer anything and win?
What am I missing?
To answer these directly.
1. France and Prussia will not readily deal. You can:
A. Set up a Pragmatic/Austrian Flanders threat that might make France consider "Reducing military objectives" as a good idea.
B. Prussia needs that second supply pretty badly, delay and threaten the single supply (Hussar placement is huge against either one that overextends) and will sometime consider the accepting Silesia to get it.
2. Remember, you can't win by defending against four. They can't move too quickly without letting you fly by and grab points. And you don't need very many to win. So slowing them down, positioning yourself as a threat rather than an objective, will allow you the time to grab the points you need.
3. Austria can grab a point or two in France, depending on the deal you run with Prags. They can grab some Saxon or Bavarian territory, and possibly recapture some in Silesia.
4. Remember the period was maneuver, avoidance and then a big fight if it furthers your aims. Avoid trying to win each fight, wait to win the big one that matters to YOUR goals, not so much to just thwarting their goals.
If you play defensive with Austria you will lose. If you ignore defense, they will eat you up too fast and you will lose. Balance is the key, you have the most armies and an army with 3 or 4 units in it can fight 2 or 3 single unit losses before you need to reinforce them. That puts a lot of pressure on the speed of French or Prussian advances, allowing you time to pursue your own points.
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"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
Who let this guy become wargame subdomain moderator anyways?
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So the interesting perspective question to ask here is why is Austria being a punching bag?
We all need to remember that the object of the game for each player is to get their VP chips out of their pool and onto the board. Prussia will have the hardest time, and the French the second hardest. Austria begins the game with only three chips in the pool.
So, should Austria even care that France and Prussia are gobbling up fortresses? Maybe the answer is no. Maybe the answer is to be aggressive and go after say Saxony and snaffle up fortresses there, leaving a general or two near Silesia to slow Prussia down.
And, related, why isn't the Pragmatic Army pressuring France to slow them down as well?
There's a delicate balance going on in Maria - yes, most of the "target rich environment" is inside Austria, but there are fortresses for the French to capture on the Flanders side of the map, and if they from turn one just abandon Austria entirely and press Prags/Austria hard on the Flanders map... well, that would certainly make it harder for Prussia on the Bohemia map!
Austria is more of a finesse power. They can't stand and fight like the Prussians and French can afford to. They need to be very clever about withdrawing strategically. Take that 1 or 2 army hit and retreat. Build up those cards. Use those hussars to make the others pay cards. Target those supply trains so they can't capture fortresses because they're out of supply.
Another way to think about it. Prussia and France are both big, slow, and carry clubs. Austria is nimble and has a rapier. If you get hit by the club you're going down, and your rapier can only wound them, but if you can make them bleed enough, they'll fall over.
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John Brier
United States
Aventura
Florida
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J Wire's advice is strong. Mine is essentially similar:
(a) Prussia only has one supply train, which it cannot afford to lose. Exploit this fact by spreading their lines and outflanking them. The same applies to the front against France Bavaria. Threaten their supply trains and get behind their lines where - by the way - all the VPs are! Which leads to my second big piece of advice...
(b) If Austria gets caught up trying only to defend it will almost always lose. Go on the offensive early on by pursuing fortresses in Bavaria and/or Saxony (and on the Flanders map consider sending Arenberg to conquer French fortresses or to cross over into Bohemia to help conquer Bavaria). Plus, in doing so, you will be threatening your opponents forces by outflanking them as described in (a).
In sum, don't lose sight of the goal, which is to dump your last victory token before the other powers do. Leave a couple generals behind to defend, but focus on sending others to get behind enemy lines and conquer fortresses. Do the same with Arenberg (unless France is threatening to win in Flanders in which case you may need to use him to assist the Prags in defense).
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Greg Low
United States
Mansfield
Massachusetts
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Zelroy wrote: I played Austria...I achieved exactly nothing; That's tough. You should at least be able to achieve some pyrrhic victories.
I wouldn't worry about spoilers. You can read all the advice, and I have, but getting it to work in your game is another story. It isn't a simple puzzle, like move piece x to spot y. It's about convincing France and/or Prussia-Pragmatic that it is in their best interest not to pound Austria into oblivion. We've played Maria about ten times, and they've never been convinced. So far, France or Prussia-Pragmatic have preferred a 50% chance to win against each other over a 33.3% chance by trying to balance Austria's existance.
Best,
-Greg
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richard sivel
Germany
berlin
Unspecified
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Quote: Take that 1 or 2 army hit and retreat.
As the designer, I want to give only one hint.
You said that all three of you were absolute beginners. Do have played Friedrich before? I ask this, because especially for Austria the "art of retreating" is very important. If you fight all battles till your last card, you certainly burn too many cards, and you will be defeated.
So, if you haven't played Friedrich before, my simple hint is: Play the introductory game of Maria a couple of times. There you can focus on all the finesses hidden in the combat system. You can learn how to trade space for time and conserve your troops.
One game of the introductory game can be played in about 90 minutes. The learning curve for the battle system is steep and fast then. After a couple of games you can then climb the next level and start the advanced game.
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Juha Kettunen
Finland
Joensuu
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rsivel wrote:
You said that all three of you were absolute beginners. Do have played Friedrich before?
No we haven't.
As a reasonably experienced gamer I thought the introductory game looked way too simple. The rules are not difficult and I didn't see the advanced game adding anything we couldn't handle.
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Mark Delano
United States
Norwalk
Connecticut
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The rules of the game are not difficult. The tactics required to make the game competitive are.
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richard sivel
Germany
berlin
Unspecified
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Quote: The rules of the game are not difficult. The tactics required to make the game competitive are.
correct. That is what I wanted to say.
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Dexsting Indemnikuck
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
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I would only point out the biggest difference between Maria and other war games (and especially while playing Austria). Battles are not important; positioning is. Losing every battle by 1 or 2 is not a bad thing (hopefully you can win some eventually...)
Pre-Maria I would think; battle between A and B; I have 5 cards in that suit, I'm going to use them all and try to pummell my opponent. Bad decision. Should be, how few cards can I use in this battle to acheive what I want or only lose 1 soldier?
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Tobi Wagner
Germany
Freiburg
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Perhaps an addition to the before mentioned:
defensive positioning is very important! with a good defensive positioning, you decide, in which colour the fight takes place. you should always try to avoid to fight 2 of your oponents in the same colour, because their combinedhand in that given colour is probably stronger than yours. but if you fight any oponent in a different colour by your choice, you can outlast them!
and as well: a fight, where your oponent has to spent 2 cards and you yourself only 1, is a good fight for you, even if you lose it by 1 army or two...
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