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Good day,
I have not yet played Button Men, but I find the concept intriguing. It actually resonates with various unsundry task resolution ideas I have had for various unsundry games. I’m interested in using it as a sub-system for some game idea(s) I have. By way of example, let us say I’m making a dungeon-crawling game. You walk into a room, and fight a monster. This requires you to play a round of Button Men.
Now, pondering on this, I have a few questions:
(1) Is there a way to chart the “winner” of a round in any effective way other than points? My concern is that I don’t want the game to get too wrapped up in adding up dice sides. I’d rather the dice to roll, a few numbers get compared, a winner get declared, and then it moves onto the rest of the game.
(2) Are there some rules out there for creating and balancing button men? I need to know this so that I can make the “hero” buttons more powerful than the “villain” buttons.
(3) Am I late, is there a game that already does this?
Thanks!
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Tim
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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Button Men is a fantastically fun and simple little game. I always thought it deserved to be the mechanism in a larger game. Best of luck in your endeavors to create something out of it. It's long overdue.
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bgg.cc/thing/22235
United States
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Play a few rounds against yourself to get a feel for it.
In terms of advantaging heroes, here are some ideas off the top of my head:
+ Give a few *exact* adjustment tokens they can spend +4, +/-1 on a d8, etc.
+ Let them attack first
+ Give a limited number of re-rolls over the course of the game
+ Give one re-roll per encounter
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Tim
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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Well, button men has all those crazy zany powers. Players could purchase those powers during the game somehow, rather than using a "stock" character, you could use the mechanism to allow people to "engine build" their character as they go...
You'll need some rules, I think people figured out that the evil bunny promos that were just like d2's was insanely powerful (completely unexpected).
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Fenômeno
United States
Fitchburg
Wisconsin
Button Soccer
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This is a great idea.
I like all the suggestions about handicapping above. 5-dice characters will be more or less balanced since bigger dice are not necessarily better. You can make characters/creatures that are more or less powerful by giving them 1 or more extra or less dice.
You can also allow the PC to choose their variable die/dice after knowing which dice the NPC is using.
The round is short enough that I would not worry about making it shorter. I would make sure that this resolution is used only for tasks or conflicts that really matter. Also, I would make sure that either result would impact but not stop the story, ie either result is acceptable for the continuation of the game so you don't have to cheat. If the PC loses, maybe this doesn't need to mean an absolute failure, possibly, a less advantageous deal.
Depending on what you are thinking for your game, you could also make the game part of the narrative. Whenever one die is captured, the capturing player could make a statement in the story.
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Ben Bateson
United Kingdom
Ross-on-Wye
Owner of original 'crappy art' GtR and pleased about it.
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The weakness of the Button Man system is in the final scoring. If the captured dice were used in an action-placement system (I'm thinking Troyes here), and the uncaptured ones used as a penalty, then I can see a good game emerging.
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Michael Nerman
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
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The game is super simple. Play a few rounds with some characters that already exist and see where it leads you. I'm not sure the game is going to do what you want it to, though. Counting the number of sides is important for determining who the winner is as it creates more of a balance between large dice and small dice. Large dice are better at attacking, but give your opponent more points when taken.
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Fenômeno
United States
Fitchburg
Wisconsin
Button Soccer
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ousgg wrote: The weakness of the Button Man system is in the final scoring.
How come? I find the scoring brilliant, full points for dice you captured and half points for dice you managed to survive. Higher dice give you more power but make you slower and provide your opponent opportunity for higher scoring. Taken in context, BM is solid.
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Lots of great feedback, which is appreciated. I do plan on printing this up and busting it out next time my game group gets together. However, that will be a month hence.
Question: are “Speed dice” a pretty decent counter against the “bunny” syndrome?
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Fenômeno
United States
Fitchburg
Wisconsin
Button Soccer
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I am not sure what is meant by bunny syndrome but there is a reason why bunnies and lab rats were banned from tournaments.
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Ronaldo wrote: I am not sure what is meant by bunny syndrome but there is a reason why bunnies and lab rats were banned from tournaments.
So I've been told. Do speed dice effectively counter bunnies? Seems like they would, if 1 die could consume several of the small dice.
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Michael Nerman
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
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Potentially, yes, but the Bunnies win initiative and don't give away a lot of points, so a button would need multiple speed dice to beat them, and if Bunnies got a couple turns, they might still win.
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nerman8r wrote: Potentially, yes, but the Bunnies win initiative and don't give away a lot of points, so a button would need multiple speed dice to beat them, and if Bunnies got a couple turns, they might still win.
Thanks for the data! I'm pondering a model where all dice function like speed dice.
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Michael Nerman
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
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I would recommend you play it straight, then try it with all speed dice. James Earnest is a good designer, and I would think he would have tried a number of different things before settling on the version as it is published.
One thing about speed dice is that they are more swingy. A player can sometimes take three or more of their opponents dice, pretty much ending the game with a lucky roll. Going first and even taking two of your opponent's dice is a big lead right from the first roll.
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nerman8r wrote: I would recommend you play it straight, then try it with all speed dice. James Earnest is a good designer, and I would think he would have tried a number of different things before settling on the version as it is published.
One thing about speed dice is that they are more swingy. A player can sometimes take three or more of their opponents dice, pretty much ending the game with a lucky roll. Going first and even taking two of your opponent's dice is a big lead right from the first roll.
I've no doubt that the game is very well balanced as-is, and I look forward to playing it. I'm not trying to re-write BM for its own sake. I'm simply musing on how to revise it so that it synergizes with a more encompassing game system. I hope that my queries are not being construed as criticism of the system, because that is certainly not the intent of them.
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Fenômeno
United States
Fitchburg
Wisconsin
Button Soccer
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Speed dice are my least favorite dice for the exact reason of being swingy. I like all the other special dice I played. I would avoid bunnies and rats. They have been identified as problems and were banned, so, why start with them. Work the system with what has been proven to work and venture through the degenerate aspects later.
I agree that the rpg cannot come to a halt when the BM game starts. Dirty Secrets uses Liar's Dice as the resolution system and it allows then players to make story statements during the resolution game which I think would work in your game.
BM has a tremendous advantage since it can be directly translated to combat and damage and I think there have been great advice in powering creatures and NPC up and down.
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Michael Nerman
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
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Gylthinel wrote: I've no doubt that the game is very well balanced as-is, and I look forward to playing it. I'm not trying to re-write BM for its own sake. I'm simply musing on how to revise it so that it synergizes with a more encompassing game system. I hope that my queries are not being construed as criticism of the system, because that is certainly not the intent of them.
No worries, bit I'm having trouble envisioning how you're going to translate it into an RPG, particularly with all dice being speed dice.
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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I think it would work. But I also think you should *derive* a combat system from BM, rather than follow it slavishly.
Frex, mooks and minions would have a simpler dice set. A pack of kobolds (sneaky and fast but weak) would be 1d4 per kobold. Brigands and orcs would be 1d6 and 1d8 respectively. Big dumb monsters would have larger dice. An ogre might be 2d12, for example.
After defeating a monster, the player just keeps the die as "experience points". The player can then trade in some number of dice for similar dice (so if you kill kobolds, you're not experienced in killing ogres!) or to "heal up". You can use dice as treasure!
For balance, don't worry about it. If you're throwing fewer dice than your players, it's not likely they'll die.
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Fenômeno
United States
Fitchburg
Wisconsin
Button Soccer
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And if they lose, they don't need to die. There are other outcomes from losing a combat or other conflict than just failure or death.
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Ronaldo wrote: Speed dice are my least favorite dice for the exact reason of being swingy. I like all the other special dice I played. I would avoid bunnies and rats. They have been identified as problems and were banned, so, why start with them. Work the system with what has been proven to work and venture through the degenerate aspects later.
nerman8r wrote: No worries, bit I'm having trouble envisioning how you're going to translate it into an RPG, particularly with all dice being speed dice.
I wasn’t planning on using this for an RPG… not sure if I gave that impression somewhere. Nope, I’m a BGG, not an RPGG.
I’ll tell you the model I have in my brain, that might clarify where I’m coming from. I’m thinking of using the dice to represents facets of a whole. Each die might be a ship in an fleet or a soldier in an army. Being able to build a customized strike force = fun. Striking the balance between infantry and tanks in A&A is half the fun of the game. Holding a die and having it represent the battlefield abilities of some unit gives the game play a certain indescribable substance that I rather enjoy.* Such is my goal herein.
But, if one combination of units is obviously superior to another, then the game would collapse. If 5xD4 goblins are going to thrash 5xD12 knights, why ever build knights at all? Well, if all knights were speed dice, this would throw a lot of power to the larger dice. If this happens, you can rather easily balance it out by making larger dice more expensive to put into the field.
Speed dice aren’t the only option, they just seem like the natural counter-argument to the bunnies, which are one of the big concerns that I’ve seen around these boards. And if a horde of bunnies could be ousted by a single good speed die roll, that could be a boon for the system-in the right overarching context.
Similarly, the game has to perform even if there are rather desperate sizes to the dice pools. If I have 3 dice and you have 5, we should be able to do battle without the outcome being foregone. If my 3 dice are all “better” than your 5, I should have a shot at winning.
Granted, it is possible that BM might not fit the bill for this sort of scheme. But it is entertaining to muse about.
Now, there are other options I’ve mused up, which I shan’t go into at the moment (the post is long enough!) but I will ask this: in RAW BM, without any special dice, what do you think the ‘most powerful’ type of die is? What about ‘least powerful?’
Thanks for the feedback!
*Speaking of RPGs, the Reign rules for fighting hordes of mooks had this effect. It was a highly enjoyable effect that made each mook “feel” real.
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Michael Nerman
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
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Oops. For some reason when I read about a dungeon crawling game, my brain thought "RPG".
The most powerful die type is Time and Space.
There are drawback "skills", such as Slow, that are obviously the least powerful. Shadow dice are pretty weak, and can be a liability, especially if the button man has too many of them.
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nerman8r wrote: Oops. For some reason when I read about a dungeon crawling game, my brain thought "RPG".
The most powerful die type is Time and Space.
There are drawback "skills", such as Slow, that are obviously the least powerful. Shadow dice are pretty weak, and can be a liability, especially if the button man has too many of them.
I meant: withouth any special abilities. Is D6 better than D12? D8 the end-all be-all? Etc.
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Michael Nerman
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
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Oh. In that case, d6's and d8's suck. They don't reliably win iniative and they don't roll high enough to take other dice. d4's or smaller are great because they win initiative and don't give away a lot of points. d20's are great, but swingier, since they can sometimes be rolled out of range of your opponent's attacks, where they can be left until the late game. A d20 can sometimes make two or three attacks in a row at the end of the game because the opponent can't make any attacks. They're swingy because they can be rolled low, resulting in easy points for the opponent.
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nerman8r wrote: Oh. In that case, d6's and d8's suck. They don't reliably win iniative and they don't roll high enough to take other dice. d4's or smaller are great because they win initiative and don't give away a lot of points. d20's are great, but swingier, since they can sometimes be rolled out of range of your opponent's attacks, where they can be left until the late game. A d20 can sometimes make two or three attacks in a row at the end of the game because the opponent can't make any attacks. They're swingy because they can be rolled low, resulting in easy points for the opponent.
Smashing, thanks! That's largely what I thought.
Above, I postulated making dice prices uneven, and then blubbering the rules so that the bigger dice were better. An alternative I've mused up is to make dice cost the same amount of resources, but make the resources different. So if you have a lot of sheep, you can crank out the D4s, but I'm putting D12s on the table with my vast supply of bricks and stone. This way, dice are produced differently, but the actual resource could would be similar.
One of the things I DISLIKE about the game is that it lacks continuity. I don't really like super short games a lot of times, and this is because my people really don't care about how they turn out. That of course is a boon for some, but it is a bust for me. So a simple way to spice up BM would be to use it as-is but add a veneer around it to give the game continuity. But if each battle takes 5-10 minutes, I'd hate for any odd-man out players to have to sit and watch while their opponetns play BM. Hmmmm...
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