Mike Romeo
Canada
Chicoutimi
Quebec
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I've played just 2 times (and was drunk) and didn't figure out how to win. This game was a blast for me and everyone who played with me!(family) great great game at a very low price!!!
As I said, this game is so simple (rules) but I found it sooooo hard (strategy). Do you ever buy your own paintings? I mean unless it's very very low but still?
If you sell it you receive let's say, 10K if you buy it yourself you don't receive 10K and PAY 10 K so its 20 K for the painting right? So it's a bad idea?
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Ken Dilloo
United States
Washington
Always bet on Chorizo!
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Could you clarify your last paragraph? If you are buying something for 10 and selling it for 20, why would that ever be a bad thing? I don't think it is bad to buy your own stuff, as long as you are making some sort of profit. That is the strategy, for this game, make a profit at every round, or as many rounds as possible.
Of course when you sell to someone else, you are reducing their bankroll, so that isn't bad either. Always keep in mind that you know what is in your hand, so you have a good chunk of the potential future market, for the artists. You get to shape that market, on your turn.
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Chris Gray
United States
Erie
Colorado
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His last paragraph is basically saying that if he has $120, and buy his own painting for $20 rather than selling to the next lowest bidder for $19 (e.g. a "once-around" auction), he could have had $139 in hand, but now will only have $100. Unless he's going to get $40 for it, it probably wasn't worth it. It gets complicated when you also consider that one opponent also has $19 more than if you had sold it to them. I think that buying your own painting may sometimes be a good choice, though I don't do it very often.
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Blorb Plorbst
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
I think we're all bozos on this bus.
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Buying your own isn't a bad deal.
Consider:
Assume you're selling a work that you expect will earn at least $30 and might make as much as $50:
If the going bid is $25 and you sell it to another player for that then you've made a guaranteed $25 profit, while she could earn anywhere from $5 to $25.
Whereas, if you buy it from yourself at this same price, you've made a $5-$25 profit but also denied others any profit from the sale.
Which is the correct play? Well that's dependent on the players and who's bidding and how the market is moving.
Here's where the art of the game comes in. Many of these decisions are based on how you read the market and whether or not you have partners in that particular artist. If you're the only one owning a certain artist, no one else will be interested in pushing more of that artist out because they will just be improving your share value. So it can happen, as in the situation stated above, that if I already hold one of the artist I'm selling, it would be better to sell to someone else to incent them to continue selling that same artist, thus pushing the price of my existing portfolio up, than to buy from myself and end up getting minimum value for both.
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Mike Romeo
Canada
Chicoutimi
Quebec
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@CrankyPants I think you are wrong,
If I sell a work to another player for 25$ then I make a 25$ profit!
If I buy my own auction 25$ and sell it 30 to 50$ to the bank as you say then it's:
-25$ (Not received from selling it to the other player)
-25$ (Buying it from the bank)
+30 to 50$ (selling it to the bank at the end, could also be 0)
So -20$ to 0$! (but you denied the other player 5 to 25$).
You: -20$ to 0$ (maybe -50$ if it's worth 0)
Other player: -25$ to -5$ (maybe 0$ if it's worth 0)
Everyother players win on both of you, and YOU take the risk instead of another player (painting =0$)
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United States
Norwood
Massachusetts
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KingAnus3 wrote:
I've played just 2 times (and was drunk) and didn't figure out how to win. This game was a blast for me and everyone who played with me!(family) great great game at a very low price!!!
As I said, this game is so simple (rules) but I found it sooooo hard (strategy). Do you ever buy your own paintings? I mean unless it's very very low but still?
If you sell it you receive let's say, 10K if you buy it yourself you don't receive 10K and PAY 10 K so its 20 K for the painting right? So it's a bad idea?
I think you're still drunk...
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Daniel Kearns
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
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Buying your own painting is ALWAYS bad.
First you give up certain cash.
Second and most importantly, you do not motivate anyone else to advance the artist you just bought.
Let's say you auction a Yoko for 10, and you buy it. That means no one else valued Yoko higher than 10. Furthermore, you are the only one who will be motivated to advance Yoko further. It is a downward spiral.
Part of Modern Art is psychology to not only get people to buy the paintings you are selling but to manipulate them such that they auction the paintings you want them to auction.
Buying your own painting fails on both of these counts.
Empirically, every time I've ever seen someone buy their own painting, they get the crap kicked out of them.
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Sight Reader
United States
Colorado
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KingAnus3 wrote:
I've played just 2 times (and was drunk) and didn't figure out how to win.
I'm drunk too, so don't get mad if I have the rules wrong...
I think buying your own painting only makes sense if you get a price that is half (or less) of the eventual value.
Thanks to later post, edited...
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Alvin C
Australia
Adelaide
South Australia
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KingAnus3 wrote: -25$ (Not received from selling it to the other player)
This isn't correct - you aren't losing $25. You are losing the opportunity to get $25, which increases the value of the "sell the painting" scenario. It does not decrease the value of the "keep the painting" scenario.
Consider 3 players with $100 each, A, B and C.
Scenario A: A keeps painting, paying $25 and sells for $50.
Net result - A: $125, B: $100, C: $100
Scenario B: A sells painting to B for $25, who sells it for $50.
Net result - A: $125, B: $125, C: $100
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Sight Reader
United States
Colorado
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Tyndal wrote:
Scenario A: A keeps painting, paying $25 and sells for $50.
Net result - A: $125, B: $100, C: $100
Oh yeah... I forgot about that. Buying it yourself does keep money away from everyone else, but the purchase price cuts into your gains. When analyzing, don't forget to note how much everyone started with:
Before round - A: $100, B: $100, C: $100
Scenario A: A sells painting to B for $26, who sells it for $50.
Net result - A: $126, B: $124, C: $100
Scenario B: A keeps painting, paying $26 and sells for $50.
Net result - A: $98, B: $100, C: $100
Thus, you make a lot more money selling than buying your own, but the problem is someone else makes money too. Buying your own for exactly half price basically skips your turn, and anything more is worse than skipping your turn: it actually loses you money.
I find it important to maximize your gains on the turns you sell to be competitive.
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Ken Dilloo
United States
Washington
Always bet on Chorizo!
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It doesn't matter where you buy your paintings, as long as you are making some sort of profit. Buy enough profitable paintings, and sell yours for a good price, and you win. Bottom line. If you make a profit off a painting you bought from yourself, fantastic. If you deny an opponent the profit, by taking it yourself, even better.
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Generally speaking, most of the money made in modern art will come from the selling part of your turn rather than the buying part of your turn. Your purchases should be designed in part to drive up prices of your personal holdings, this round or in a future round.
By purchasing your own painting, you are depriving yourself of the most lucrative source of income. Assuming you are playing strong competition, a painting that is worth, say, $60 will probably go for at least $50. That means that the seller will make the vast bulk of the profits from the sale of the painting.
That said, in the first round, if you are trying to tank a certain artist, then by all means buy your own painting. The loss will be small and the damage done to other player's hands might outweigh the loss incurred by that purchase. However, buying a painting in the 3rd or 4th round is probably a game-losing proposition.
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Alvin C
Australia
Adelaide
South Australia
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sightreader wrote: Scenario B: A keeps painting, paying $26 and sells for $50.
Net result - A: $98, B: $100, C: $100
How does selling something for more than you paid for it lose you money? Is there a tax or something?
The correct result is
Scenario B: A keeps painting, paying $26 and sells for $50.
Net result - A: $124, B: $100, C: $100
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Daniel Kearns
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
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Four other intangible negatives to buying your own painting:
1) In practice it will be very difficult to get double the money for your self bought painting (as others will be unlikely to play one).
2) You decrease your ability to support your holdings. The cards in your hand tell you which artists that you can improve the value of. By buying your own painting you reduce the ability to improve that artist in later rounds. In contrast, if you buy the artist from another player, you still have a like card in your hand to play.
3) You learn nothing about the motivation of the other players, save that they aren't interested in that artist (really bad).
4) You communicate to everyone else that you are the most interested in the artist you just bought (to the point that you are willing to suffer all of the consequences of buying your own painting).
To the OP, as you play more Modern Art (an amazing and extremely subtle game in my opinion) watch what happens to people who buy their own paintings. I think that should answer your question.
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Sight Reader
United States
Colorado
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Tyndal wrote: How does selling something for more than you paid for it lose you money? Is there a tax or something?
Oops. Sorry about that. Never drink and post.
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Todd Redden
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
"Don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church."
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It's different for different auction types. "Set price" auctions are the most likely to net your own painting. If you set the price too high for an otherwise less popular artist's painting then you're likely to acquire it for more than its worth! It's not just making a profit on each painting or on every round, but you have to make MORE of a profit than the other players. That's the hard part, watching closely what everybody else is doing!
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Ken Dilloo
United States
Washington
Always bet on Chorizo!
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Right, not saying buying your own painting is a good strategy, or a bad strategy. Just saying that if you know you can sell it, for a healthy profit, it is probably not a good idea to shy away from it, just because it is your own. I will take profit over psychology any day :-D Saying always, or never, is never always right.
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Daniel Kearns
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
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I stand by the never.
I agree that you can make a small amount of money buying your own painting.
But if you are in a situation where it seems like a good idea, I guarantee there was a better auction you could have played.
Also, if you are playing at a table where your opponents let you make a healthy profit off a self-bought painting, something is messed up.
We would play to bury that person.
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