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Subject: How about some co-op elements? rss

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Mike B
Netherlands
Utrecht
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After reading the rules and looking at the photos I couldn't help but wonder:

You're not 'alone' out there. There are other players as well. It looks you could even end up at the same spot at the same time.

I think it would be nice to develop a variant where you could have some semi coop strategies while you're in the same place as another player. With some pros and some cons, so you can decide if survive better or not if you hang on to another player, or work out some (temporary) strategies.

Some ideas:
a higher survival chance against animals (there's more of you against the animal)
only one player get hit by an animal (the one that is the least exhausted for instance)
searching for food is more efficient

It's not that I'm such a co-op fan. It just seems odd to me that when you could end up in the same spot you're still pretending you're 'alone out there' which doesn't seem thematically right...
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Jonathan Fryxelius
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That's where the event cards come in handy. Even though there are no specific game rules about cooperation, some cards take advantage of being in the same space. I like your idea about making it easier to hunt for food, but I guess it would be too powerful. Having a larger chance of survival against animals is also an interesting idea. I will forward your suggestions to my brother Daniel (the designer of the game) and ask for his opinions. Thank you!
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Daniel Fryxelius
Sweden
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Hi! and thank you for your ideas, and as you say, maybe it would be fun to play a variant with more co-op.

We have tried the ideas with special rules for people standing in the same area. It would be natural to help each other in these cases. But we soon abandonned the idea, and here are the reasons:

1) the size of each area is huge, with a diameter of 7 kilometers and a suface of 40 square kilometers. To find each other in that area would be very uncommon.

2) The nature of the game is competative. The players are often more interested in sabotage than to help each other. The way to win the game is to make sure you survive yourself and your opponents don't. So I've often heard players ask if they can attack each other it they are in the same area.

3) If the players would benifit from being together the game would be more static. People would go the same way and not spread out.

4) there would be problems with the game round and the natures turn. The first player would start his turn with another player in the same area and then go away, being the leader. The last player would start his turn alone and go to another player, being a loser, in order to get the benifit of cooperation.

5) In reality I think that real persons in theese conditions would'nt compete. They would be glad to have a friend with them all the way. So if they would find each other they would be "holding hands" for the rest of the jurny and win together. it would be no point in having two separet players in this case.

In the end we desided to bring the cooperation into the game via event cards. Some event cards have these elemets. maybe for another game variant the idea would be to win as a group. The game would be very different from Wilderness as it is today.

/Daniel Fryxelius (designer of Wilderness)
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Michael Taylor
United States
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MikeBwithoutadot wrote:
After reading the rules...


I'd love to buy this game and read the rules but apparently it is not available yet!

How did you read the rules?
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Jacob Fryxelius
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cauldronofevil wrote:
MikeBwithoutadot wrote:
After reading the rules...


I'd love to buy this game and read the rules but apparently it is not available yet!

How did you read the rules?


Hi.

On our website, you can download the rules and read more about the game and how to order it through IndieGoGo. The rules are for the hand-made version sold out at Essen-11, and not identical to the version we are printing now, although very close to it.

http://www.fryxgames.se/?page_id=17

There are basically 2 rules changes:
1) You start with some thirst, hunger and exhaustion.
2) You search for food instead of hunting. More realistic since you don't have any equipment to speak of. Roll 2 dice and get that amount of food, unless you roll a '1' - then you're lost. The new rules gives you a higher success rate, but a little less reward in terms of food.

We feel that these changes both make the game more realistic and interesting.

We hope you like it.

/Jacob
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Michael Taylor
United States
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Fryxen wrote:
http://www.fryxgames.se/?page_id=17

There are basically 2 rules changes:
1) You start with some thirst, hunger and exhaustion.
2) You search for food instead of hunting. More realistic since you don't have any equipment to speak of. Roll 2 dice and get that amount of food, unless you roll a '1' - then you're lost. The new rules gives you a higher success rate, but a little less reward in terms of food.
/Jacob


That link gives a 'file not found' error. http://www.fryxgames.se/English_rulebook.pdf

Also, I kind of like the idea of both starting 'fresh' AND hunting!

Any chance these can be made as optional rules?

thanks!
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Jacob Fryxelius
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cauldronofevil wrote:
Fryxen wrote:
http://www.fryxgames.se/?page_id=17

There are basically 2 rules changes:
1) You start with some thirst, hunger and exhaustion.
2) You search for food instead of hunting. More realistic since you don't have any equipment to speak of. Roll 2 dice and get that amount of food, unless you roll a '1' - then you're lost. The new rules gives you a higher success rate, but a little less reward in terms of food.
/Jacob


That link gives a 'file not found' error. http://www.fryxgames.se/English_rulebook.pdf

Also, I kind of like the idea of both starting 'fresh' AND hunting!

Any chance these can be made as optional rules?

thanks!


Thanks for the nnew link!

Even with the new rules, you start quite fresh. The difference is that there is now a point in sleeping all night the first night (before, 1 turn of sleep the first night was enough to get completely rested, so people regularly tried to move again during the night because there was nothing else to do). Now you also have to start thinking about thirst and hunger during the first day, although none of them are critical. Overall, you have more important decisions to make. This also greatly enhances the short game with only 4 landscape tiles, which before was more of a race than a survival game.

The hunting, as described in the old rules, gives you a 50% chance to get completely restored, hungerwise. This led to people waiting to get really hungry before hunting, so they benefited more. Then, when they failed the hunt, they entered what we call 'the hunger-exhaustion spiral' where you are both hungry and exhausted and for every failed hunt you have to sleep by water for several turns before you can try to hunt again. With the new search for food rules, you have a 66% chance to get food, but you get a limited amount (4-12). This means that players are encouraged to deal with hunger earlier, and if they already are in the 'hunger-exhaustion spiral', they have a higher chance to start getting out of it.

We also feel that both the new rules are thematically more correct, but that is of course a subjective view.
You are free to make any rules change you want, and for example keep to the old rules. It's very easy: just print out the old rules and follow them. Or make your own summary of the hunting rules. The drawback is that some of the event cards will not be campatible with the old hunting rules, but I'm sure you could find alternate rules for them as well.
Hunting and 'fresh start' will not be officiaal optional rules, but who am I to stop you from enjoying and playing the game any way you want?

By the way, hunting is actually still part of the game, in the form of some event cards and in provoking the predators to attack you. It's very risky, but it can also pay off since it restores your hunger parameter completely, and doesn't cost any energy.

Cheers!
/Jacob
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Michael Taylor
United States
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Sounds well-thought out!

Any chance of the rules being uploaded somewhere?

thanks!

PS: For what it's worth, I AM looking for an updated Outdoor Survival game!
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Joaquin Oliveira
United States
Framingham
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This game should have been co-op and with a solo variant , it has all the aspects and theme , we don't fight each other in the wild but the elements , animals , terrain and so on.
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Jacob Fryxelius
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The game is already kind of a parallel solo game whith each player finding his own way and only interacting through event cards (providing strong interaction though). Making it a co-op makes sense for a theme (as well as the game as it is - each hex is 6 km across, so even if you stand in the same area, your chances of meeting are slim.), but that would be a totally different game without the race element and competition. Surviving together is much easier, for instance.

It would be interesting to see such a game though. Isn't Crusoe something like this?
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