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Subject: Shuffle discard pile when Property Card deck is empty? rss

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Jeff Glasson
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Do you shuffle the discards when the property deck runs out to create a new draw deck, or does the deck run out and you may not get to draw cards late in the game?

I couldn't find anything in the rules and we played that you shuffle the discards.

Were we right?

Thanks,
Jeff
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Tim Seitz
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I don't think so. I think the intention is that certain buildings are removed. I could be wrong, of course.
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Zack Stackurski
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I couldn't find anything about it anyplace obvious in the rulebook and if its not mentioned I would think you shouldn't reshuffle. However, I think thematically it would be alright to reshuffle the deck and reissue permits for unbuilt buildings... but we'll have to wait for the designers to chime in here for sure.
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Jeff Glasson
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You may be right that you don't reshuffle. In the 2 player rules, it says that you place a NP marker on a building and then discard the card. That means there are cards in the discard pile that have already been built.

We need to wait for an official ruling from the designers, but this means that the Library action can be particularly nasty to burn through cards.
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Scott Everts
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We're playing our first game tonight and just assumed you would shuffle. Otherwise wouldn't you burn through the cards fairly quickly? Seems only natural to shuffle them.
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Zack Stackurski
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ScottE wrote:
Otherwise wouldn't you burn through the cards fairly quickly?


Not necessarily. You need to spend resources and/or worker placements to get cards so you don't end up drawing as many as you might expect. In the three player game I played we didn't go through much of the deck at all... though we didn't have the librarian's guild out and only one player built a library... so this may have been an anomoly.
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Scott Everts
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ZackStack wrote:
ScottE wrote:
Otherwise wouldn't you burn through the cards fairly quickly?


Not necessarily. You need to spend resources and/or worker placements to get cards so you don't end up drawing as many as you might expect. In the three player game I played we didn't go through much of the deck at all... though we didn't have the librarian's guild out and only one player built a library... so this may have been an anomoly.

Interesting, thanks! Since I haven't played yet and saw there's several ways to get cards I was afraid they'd get shuffled through fast. Good to know that's not the case. That also means at the beginning of the game a bunch of cards will be missing from the initial discards.

Though that means a smaller game will burn through the deck slower then a larger game. But then there's more fighting between districts in a larger game. I wonder how well this game scales between 3 and 5 players? Seems to me a 5 player game would be crazy while a 3 player game there would be less fighting over districts since there's more room to spread out. I wonder if 4 players is a nice sweet spot? Unfortunately I think out first game will be 5 players so hopefully it won't get too crazy. We won't be playing with interactive guilds the first game since I think everyone will have a hard enough time just getting the swing of things.
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Jeff Glasson
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The reason I asked the question was that in the 5 player game we played yesterday, we burned through the deck in either turn 4 or 5. There were lots of libraries built and being used.
The two player game I played today was not an issue.
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Yeah I know it doesn't say so but if you don't then it's quite unbalanced for different number of players...not to mention if you do random guilds (as we do) and the Library guild comes out (draw 3 discard 1) you are going to find that deck diminishes very quickly. If you can't reshuffle it impacts way too much on the board placement.
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Seth Jaffee
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When the property card deck runs out, shuffle the discards. In most games I have not seen this happen, but of course it is possible - I think you'll find it rare.

- Seth
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Scott Everts
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Thanks Seth for the clarification.

We played a 5 player game tonight but had to end on the 5th turn since a few of the players had to leave. We were getting low and I expect the deck would of needed shuffling before we finished. Certainly with less players it would be rare.
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Jeff Glasson
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sedjtroll wrote:
When the property card deck runs out, shuffle the discards. In most games I have not seen this happen, but of course it is possible - I think you'll find it rare.

- Seth

Thanks for the reply. Then I guess to be pedantic, in the two player game, buildings built by the NPs should not be discarded, but removed from the game.

Jeff
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Sen-Foong Lim
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jglasson wrote:
Then I guess to be pedantic, in the two player game, buildings built by the NPs should not be discarded, but removed from the game.


Yup. Anything built should be considered "out of the game". Of course, because an Inn card means any Inn on the board, it's not a specific thing. It's a percentage distribution thing.

Good question. Apologies for not stating this specifically in the rules.
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David Chiu
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In our 1st 5 player game we had to reshuffle by turn 5.
We nearly ran out of cards by end of game, maybe 5 or so were left in the deck.
We did have the Librarian Guild and quite a few libraries built.
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Paul Owen
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sedjtroll wrote:
When the property card deck runs out, shuffle the discards. In most games I have not seen this happen, but of course it is possible - I think you'll find it rare.


I notice you specifically said "discards." The question came up among us this evening whether to shuffle in the three face-up cards and deal three new ones; we elected not to. For various reasons, none of us was interested in picking up any of them, so they kind of "clogged the array" for most of the game.
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Sen-Foong Lim
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Again, not specifically stated, but that is the intention: the available face up cards have not been discarded and are therefore not reshuffled.
 
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Matt S
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Thanks for the answer! I will be doing the first 5 player game of this tomorrow and was anticipating this situation happening as half the deck is dealt out to begin with. I haven't run into this being a problem on lower player count games.
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