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Andrew Nichols
United States
Washington
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So I just played my first game of Dominion with the Intrigue expansion (I've played games previous to this) and I have to say I'm really frustrated! Masquerade doesn't just seem like an overpowered one, it seems like the only card in either set that is an attack card without the explicit title of "Attack."
Let me explain. Masquerade is an action card, it let's you draw two cards and then it makes every player (including you) pass a card from your hand to their left neighbor at the table (simultaneously as to not pass a single junk card around). You (the one who played the card) will eventually receive a card from your neighbor to our right, you have the option to trash the card you receive.
In all honesty this card seems fine except that it's one of the only cards I know of that can affect other players negatively without them having any way (in any game combination) to block. It is not an attack card and therefore moats can't stop them. You can obviously use this as a sort of chapel with a plus. But for other players it really sucks. There's NO way to stop it.
If a malicious player picks up curses, they can use the card to distribute them like a weak version of witch... that you can't block. I looked up interviews etc. and it looks like the reason they didn't label it as an attack card is because they didn't know how it would work if players used moats, etc.
Honestly I think it should be an attack card. I usually love Dominion but I just see the card as overpowered and unstoppable. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Do you feel similarly or am I missing something.
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Two things:
1. Masquerade is so rarely painful. Usually you pass a junk card and get a junk card. Net result, almost nothing. Often it even helps you if you trade an estate for a copper.
2. More importantly, I think you're overvaluing Moat as a defense against attacks. I think if you play more Dominion, you'll realize that even when Moat is available, its usually not a very effective way of blocking attacks. So the fact that it doesn't work on Masquerade isn't a big deal.
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Dennis Gadgaard
Denmark
Hvidovre
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It would be quite simple to take Moat into consideration if Masquerade were an attack; if you play a Moat you do not pass a card and the card passed from your right skips you and is passed on to the player on your left. Play a moat, sit the effect out. Just like any other attack.
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Scott Heise
United States
Los Gatos
California
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Masquerade's effect is usually neutral (pass junk, get junk) and can sometimes be positive if your RHP has a good hand without any copper/estates.
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Duncan
New Zealand
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Thank you so much. Next please
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seattleandrew wrote: In all honesty this card seems fine except that it's one of the only cards I know of that can affect other players negatively without them having any way (in any game combination) to block. It is not an attack card and therefore moats can't stop them. You can obviously use this as a sort of chapel with a plus. But for other players it really sucks. There's NO way to stop it.
If a malicious player picks up curses, they can use the card to distribute them like a weak version of witch... that you can't block. I looked up interviews etc. and it looks like the reason they didn't label it as an attack card is because they didn't know how it would work if players used moats, etc.
A player acting as you describe has to have quite a few things going in their favour (to succeed) - extra buys to get the curses without unduly sacrificing buying opportunities and then there is the detail of getting curse and masquerade in their hand at the same time and not suffering in other turns from having curses in their hands during other turns. Frankly I can't see anyone winning by buying curses to pass to opponents. On the other hand, using Masquerade as something of a counter to the Witch and other cards that distribute curses does have some merit.
Quote: Honestly I think it should be an attack card. I usually love Dominion but I just see the card as overpowered and unstoppable. Does anyone else know what I'm talking about? Do you feel similarly or am I missing something.
On reading this I have to advise you never to play with the Possession if you feel this way about Masquerade - it too is not an attack while definitely being unpleasant for other players to have it played on them.
Masquerade is not overpowered but remember the principle of "if you can't beat them, join them" - one of my personal favourite things about dominion is that you have access to the same cards as all other players in any one game.
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spacewolf009 wrote: seattleandrew wrote: In all honesty this card seems fine except that it's one of the only cards I know of that can affect other players negatively without them having any way (in any game combination) to block. It is not an attack card and therefore moats can't stop them. You can obviously use this as a sort of chapel with a plus. But for other players it really sucks. There's NO way to stop it.
If a malicious player picks up curses, they can use the card to distribute them like a weak version of witch... that you can't block. I looked up interviews etc. and it looks like the reason they didn't label it as an attack card is because they didn't know how it would work if players used moats, etc. A player acting as you describe has to have quite a few things going in their favour (to succeed) - extra buys to get the curses without unduly sacrificing buying opportunities and then there is the detail of getting curse and masquerade in their hand at the same time and not suffering in other turns from having curses in their hands during other turns. Frankly I can't see anyone winning by buying curses to pass to opponents. On the other hand, using Masquerade as something of a counter to the Witch and other cards that distribute curses does have some merit.
Correct. We tried it. Isn't worth grabbing the curses, cos to make it worthwhile you have to buy lots, and use Masquerade lots. Guess what gets passed back? Guess what everyone else does back to you? And hell, while you're wasting time with this stunt, I've just bought a colony...
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seattleandrew wrote: Let me explain. Masquerade is an action card, it let's you (...), you have the option to trash the card you receive.
You have the option to trash any one card from your hand, including the one you just received from your right.
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Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Den Haag
Altijd zin in een spelletje!
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DenGad wrote: It would be quite simple to take Moat into consideration if Masquerade were an attack; if you play a Moat you do not pass a card and the card passed from your right skips you and is passed on to the player on your left.
That is not what Moat does. If you want it to work like that, you have to put a rule somewhere saying that; either on the Moat or on the Masquerade.
As the cards are now, Moat says you're not affected by an attack. If the Masquerade were an Attack, the player to the right of Moat's owner can't pass a card (because the Moat's owner would be affected if a card was passed), and the Moat's owner doesn't pass a card either. So a single revealed Moat would have an effect on 3 players.
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Markus M.
Finland
Helsinki
Uusimaa
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seattleandrew wrote: I usually love Dominion but I just see the card as overpowered and unstoppable.
Solution: do not play with Masquerade.
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Oh, hey, it's this thread again.
DeePee wrote: Solution: do not play with Masquerade.
Alternate solution: do play with Masquerade, and realize that being forced to pass a Copper in exchange for a Copper doesn't really hurt you.
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'The Completist'
United States
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We need a reaction/duration card. I would love to have a moat that was good for two rounds. One in my hand. One on the table.
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Hockey Mask wrote: We need a reaction/duration card. I would love to have a moat that was good for two rounds. One in my hand. One on the table.
It would need to be Action-Reaction-Duration or Treasure-Reaction-Duration - Duration is useless without a way to get it into play.
And in order to avoid absolutely murdering everyone's incentive to ever buy Attacks, that card's other effect would need to be extremely weak.
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'The Completist'
United States
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I guess 'Gain a Gold and put it on top of your deck' is out of the question...
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Bryan Maxwell
United States
Burtchville
Michigan
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Dominion has reactions, and it has plenty of overreactions, too...
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matt feldman
United States
Maple Valley
Washington
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i find cellar to be overpowered.
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Mark Judd
United States
Mapleton
Utah
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jojobinks wrote: i find cellar to be overpowered.
Are you kidding? Mine is the best card in the game and most overpowered!
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Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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pijll wrote: DenGad wrote: It would be quite simple to take Moat into consideration if Masquerade were an attack; if you play a Moat you do not pass a card and the card passed from your right skips you and is passed on to the player on your left. That is not what Moat does. If you want it to work like that, you have to put a rule somewhere saying that; either on the Moat or on the Masquerade. As the cards are now, Moat says you're not affected by an attack. If the Masquerade were an Attack, the player to the right of Moat's owner can't pass a card (because the Moat's owner would be affected if a card was passed), and the Moat's owner doesn't pass a card either. So a single revealed Moat would have an effect on 3 players.
I don't think you understood Dennis, he was quite correct. The moat would only affect the single player who played it, not 3.
Four players in clockwise order, A, B, C, D.
A plays the Masquerade. C reveals the Moat.
A hands a card to B.
B hands a card to D (skipping C since C is Moating)
D hands a card to A.
A trashes if desired.
B and D still passed and received 1 card, just not to/from C.
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Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Den Haag
Altijd zin in een spelletje!
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote: B hands a card to D (skipping C since C is Moating)
Why is B allowed to pass the card to D? The card says B passes the card to C. This is impossible because C revealed a moat. The rules say that if something is impossible (such as passing a card to someone), you shouldn't replace that action with something that is vaguely similar (such as passing a card to someone else); you just don't do that action.
So, in this case, when Masquerade is an Attack and C reveals a moat:
A hands a card to B.
B tries to hand a card to C, but fails.
C does nothing.
D hands a card to A.
So B ends up with one card more and D ends up with one card less than C.
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matt feldman
United States
Maple Valley
Washington
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Beaveman wrote: jojobinks wrote: i find cellar to be overpowered. Are you kidding? Mine is the best card in the game and most overpowered!
true that. play it 7 times and your deck has 7 silvers!!! that said you do give up all that sweet sweet copper, so there's a tradeoff.
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Here's what really confuses me about people complaining that Moat doesn't block Masquerade: a humble Copper or Estate essentially acts as a Moat against Masquerade, since if it's in your hand then you can't possibly be forced to give up anything good, and you won't get anything too much worse in return. Instead of whining that Masquerade is so strong that it gets through actual Moats, why not celebrate that Masquerade is so weak that you start with ten Moat-substitutes to block Masquerade in your deck?
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Mark Judd
United States
Mapleton
Utah
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salty53 wrote: ...since if it's in your hand then you can't possibly be forced to give up anything good, and you won't get anything too much worse in return.
...
Says the person that has never had to pass a Gold or Province from a Chapel deck...
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Jeff Wolfe
United States
Columbus
Ohio
Zendo fan, Columbus Blue Jackets fan, Dominion Fan. These are 'permanent microbadges' to free up space on my microbadge row
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Beaveman wrote: salty53 wrote: ...since if it's in your hand then you can't possibly be forced to give up anything good, and you won't get anything too much worse in return.
... Says the person that has never had to pass a Gold or Province from a Chapel deck...
The person who plays a Chapel deck with Masquerade in play isn't forced. He volunteers.
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Matt E
United States
St. Paul
Minnesota
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jeffwolfe wrote: The person who plays a Chapel deck with Masquerade in play isn't forced. He volunteers.
Agreed. If you're playing a Chapel deck with Masquerade available, then you deserve to lose a Gold/Province.
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Beaveman wrote: salty53 wrote: ...since if it's in your hand then you can't possibly be forced to give up anything good, and you won't get anything too much worse in return.
... Says the person that has never had to pass a Gold or Province from a Chapel deck...
You were forced to pass off a Gold or a Province from a Chapel deck while you had a Copper or Estate in your hand?
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Ludere Cum Dignitate
United States
Carrollton
Texas
"[hyperbole], it's pretty much the best and most exceptional and effective way of expressing oneself all the time ever." ~MScrivner
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This is an attack. It is not published with the title attack on the card but it is an attack and in the right deck it can be a pretty powerful one...
If I play it with a kings court thereby playing the last cards from my hand and the last card from my deck/discard pile then I just forced my opponent to loose 3 cards without getting anything in return.
I see the excuse used to not mark this as an attack but it (in my opinion) should have been. The rules regarding it could have stated how to deal with the issue. In a 2 player game it could be used to trash a card. In a 3 player game it would function like a 2 player game...
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