Craig Besinque
Canada
New Denver
BC
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There have been several perceptions recorded here that Athens is too vulnerable to massive Spartan assault in 431, especially given the possibility of multiple Athenian disasters: Plague, Plague Returns, heavy Siege Attrition (Spartans briefly control the Saronic Gulf), Treachery, etc. Civil War has already been removed from the equation while Pericles (hence Plague) is in the game, but could occur shortly after Plague kills him off, along with much of Athens' defensive strength.
Some time ago, Tom Kassel sent me a Pascal program he wrote that demonstrated to me (by Monte Carlo simulation) that Athens is actually somewhat weaker versus Siege Assault than I had planned. While Athens can still IMO defend itself adequately while reducing Potidea and defending against Revolts, it does require more strength than I had anticipated.
In development, we considered including Athena as an Athens-only Olympian. After all, she was the patron goddess of Athens, also a goddess of war strategy, and wisdom among other things.
The proposal is to add Athena as a automatically available Olympian (no Sacrifice necessary) available to Athens only, when defending the CityState of Athens itself, as follows:
"ATHENA: Athens (only) can always appeal (no Sacrifice necessary) for the re-roll of any ONE unit attack (by either side) per Combat Round during any Battle or Assault occurring in the CityState of Athens."
This is a modest tweak that gives Athens a tad more security against massive Spartan assaults. It seems realistic given that Athens uniquely could call upon its relatively huge population when threatened.
How does that sound? If the reaction is favorable, I will include this rule in the next update.
Craig
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Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
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I think it is too random to assess to be honest. The premise of the strategy is that the number of Spartan units required on average to win, and having an Athena rule like this just slightly increases the number of Spartan units required.
I have two alternative suggestions for you, based on two historical facts & events
1. Give Athens more than 1 garrison unit, since it had larger population than other cities. Maybe 3-4 garrison blocks. I think the number crunchers can assess how helpful these would be, but the key feature is that they are not subject to plague (but are to attrition).
2. The Spartans stopped besieging Athens after 425 because of the elite Spartiate prisoners taken at Sphacteria. Allow this event to take place after an Athenian destruction of an Elite Spartan block. Allow Athens to taken the Elite block prisoner, thus preventing siege of Athens, but returning the Elite block to the Spartan force pool whenever a Peace is declared.
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Tiggo Morrison
United Kingdom
Bridgnorth
Shropshire
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Mark,
Two very good suggestions. Especially the first one.
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Craig Besinque
Canada
New Denver
BC
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Mark, gang
Really, any of these pro-Athens-defense tweaks have the ultimate effect of requiring more Spartan units to successfully assault Athens (or looking at it another way, of requiring fewer Athenian defenders).
I kind of like the 4-garrison idea for Athens, too. It's credible and simple to implement. Basically equals +3 cv for Athens defense. The Athena effect probably amounts to less than half that effect.
One thing that makes me a little reluctant is that it would encourage attrition attacks on Athens (ie, capture one of the crucial seas and besiege) since the extra blocks mean more Attrition dierolls, and hence more (+1.5cv) attrition losses, and these are applied to Athenian armies and fleets.
This strategy did eventually settle the real war, but not sure I want to encourage this as the Spartan "go-to" strategy right from the start.
How about the Athens garrison (1 block) rolls 4 dice? Does mean that only 1 hit to kill the garrison(s), not 4. No attrition effect.
Another idea I looked at was Athena giving defensive Triple Fire (A3) for the first round of combats in Athens. My number crunching indicated this amounted to about +3 for Athens also (without the attrition effect).
Again, my feeling is that Athens is completely defensible in 431 as long as the Athenian player recognizes the defensive requirements. How strong is the need for any tweak at all? 431 is IMO more interesting if Athens is on the edge of being at risk.
Craig
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Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
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I've never seen Athens fall, but I can see how the Spartan move last, move first strategy is using the game mechanics more than 'historical simulation'.
A third possibility that might be more in keeping with God like powers is for Athena to allow a player to take the the initiative, regardless of the number of Actions played. This could break that particular cycle. Needs a bit of though about how general this option should be, potentially it could be a normal sacrifice open to both players, but I think the character of the problem suggests an Athenian only sacrifice. If so, I think the Spartans should also get their own specific sacrifice.
This doesn't preclude the other options, and in some ways a general increase in garrison blocks all round might be interesting. Garrisons = Half the City Value rounded up would mean more units moving about for the bigger powers (Corinth, Thebes, Sparta, Athens and Syracuse), and larger revolts in the '3' cities.
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Tiggo Morrison
United Kingdom
Bridgnorth
Shropshire
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cbesinque wrote:
Again, my feeling is that Athens is completely defensible in 431 as long as the Athenian player recognizes the defensive requirements. How strong is the need for any tweak at all? 431 is IMO more interesting if Athens is on the edge of being at risk.
This is a very good point. I've never seen Athens in trouble early in the war unless an experienced Sparta is taking (imo unfair) advantage of a less experienced Athens
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Ian Duquette
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
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I'm a huge fan of this game and have given this issue some thought as well. Would it not be possible to simply alter the setup for 431 and give Athens a few more blocks? One idea I've toyed with is to bid to play Sparta. The cost of the bid is the number of extra recruits or builds to allow the Ahtenian player to place in Attica.
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Tobi Wagner
Germany
Freiburg
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I also don't see Athens that endangered. but nonetheless, I don't think thatthe long walls of Athens are considered enough in this game: they were in that time not "nearly unassaultable", but in fact "unassaultable". Spartanever made any serious attempt to storm Athens itself, it was simply impossible, since alone with the elder and the younger citizens of Athens that were not sent on expeditions and warfare, the long walls could be held endlessly. Walls of other states were not that effective, also due to fewer population.
Therefore I would also be content with an upgrade of Athen's defense. the 4 garrison idea is great, even 5 or 6 would be ok (perhaps give sparta (and maybe corinth, thebes, argos) 2 in return) I also don`t see the attrition problem that big: first, with more garrisons, athens has also more fleets availabl to secure its supply seazones and secondly, losing those supply zones to sparta always is a big blow for athens, which should be avoided under all circumstances.
and I also like the triple-defense-idea: but why not give Athens always triple defense, and, for balance issues, grant the spartans 3 prestige for pillaging athens instead of 2?
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Mark McG
Australia
Penshurst
NSW
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_torQuemada_ wrote:
and I also like the triple-defense-idea: but why not give Athens always triple defense, and, for balance issues, grant the spartans 3 prestige for pillaging athens instead of 2?
Granting the Spartans 3 Prestige for pillaging Attica strikes me as unbalancing towards Sparta. Strengthening Athens a bit to counter a game mechanic issue seems sensible, but if Athens doesn't fall, then the existing balance is fine.
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Tobi Wagner
Germany
Freiburg
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I agree that the current balancing isn't so bad. and my proposal with triple defense for athenian defenders is merely a tribut to historicity. but it is, as well, more than just a minor tweak if any athenian defender has always triple d. so therefore u need to balance this again, as well. my suggestion was 3 tribute for pillaging athens, which could be huge, i agree. but i think that triple d should provide the same defensibility for athens with just 2 thirds of the troops needed than before, which should equal the pillaging again, since it means 3-5 blocks more available for athens on the map, fighting against revolts or conquering spartan subjects.
but of course, its just a proposal, which needs to be tested in play, what Ithink I will do in my next matches...
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