Recommend
32 
 Thumb up
 Hide
142 Posts
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [6] | 

Flash Duel» Forums » News

Subject: New BGG Page for Second Edition rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: IP [+] chilling-effect [+] drama-llama [+] popcorn [+] [View All]
Mark crane
Qatar
Provo
Utah
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I will play games by Sirlin, by FFG and even train games, because I care a lot more about having fun playing games than I do about delightful personalities. What percentage of game players or even BGG users are wonderfully charming? 20 percent? I'm not willing to play those odds.



Disclaimer: I would put myself in the category of "total doorknob, 80 percent of the time."

22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Placerville
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Most of my customers follow a code and when a company steps out of line, for one reason or another, they get replaced.

At my store Games Workshop was replaced by Privateer Press who then was replaced by Wyrd (though they have come back to Warmachine), DND for the most part was replaced by Pathfinder, and now FFG is being replace by Dominion, Sirlin's games, and Days of Wonder products such as Small World.

I asked my customers why they do this and they told me because if they can find similar fun through a cheaper product then they don't need expensive FFG and Wizard of the Coast games.

I think it is just because they have grown up and don't have the time to setup an epic sprawl like Runewars or Chaos in the Old World. They don't have college loans to pay for Magic. They don't have mom and dad buying them expensive figures. Life gets pretty rough for most gamers after college when they are force to get a part time job while college friends go their own separate ways.

My point being that Mr. Petersen really doesn't have room to be making these mistakes. Bottom line is that he PUBLICLY called out another developer and my customers and Sirlin's fans didn't like this.Although I know this is only Mr. Petersen's personal view, FFG and co. just happens to be the unfortunate collateral damage.

I am sure there are many Sirlin fans that are also FFG customers who do not know about this debacle. If Sirlin wanted...he could have put a serious dent on FFG by making a blog about this on his site and a topic in the Fantasy Strike forums. I am glad to see he stayed quiet and tried to get the topic back on track. Sirlin is after all "the peoples champ" for aspiring small developers, with almost 2,000 supporters on his personal site or the 16k+ on Fantasy Strike.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddie the Cranky Gamer
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Minkoff
United States
Mansfield
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Don't you have better things to do?
badge
Should you be reading this?
mbmbmbmbmb
GamesOnTheBrain wrote:
kevinpdx wrote:
My point was/is Flash Duel utilizes 100% of a previous game without officially recognizing it, and this bothers me enough to pass on purchasing it.


Wait a second... I thought he *did* officially recognize Knizia by crediting him as inspiration for the game. I thought the question was whether this acknowledgment is enough or whether the property needs to be licensed.


Recognizing someone with a "thank you" and no money or a design credit is not the same as actually paying him to license the mechanics exactly duplicated in the base game.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddie the Cranky Gamer
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
Macabee wrote:

Recognizing someone with a "thank you" and no money or a design credit is not the same as actually paying him to license the mechanics exactly duplicated in the base game.


Well thank god he didn't need to do that, neither by gentlemens agreement, common decency, or law. If he had violated that we'd have a real thread on our hands here.
39 
 Thumb up
0.03
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Way
Canada
Halifax
Nova Scotia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
So, having read the thread (so far), I take away a few things:

1. It was decent of Mr. Petersen to follow up multiple times on the initial laconic post. I think the first post made the point he was trying to make, but the engagement with other commentors who questioned the first posting is good to see.

2. I find it very telling that the good Dr. Knizia has not commented publicly. (Yes, he may be 'biased'... but it's not as though Mr. Petersen, Sirlin, or even yours truly are models of impartiality.) Dr. Knizia would seem to have an interest in not criticizing Sirlin publicly at this time, otherwise he could have done so in any number of fora.

3. Speaking only for myself, if my work was possibly being infringed, I wouldn't necessarily move immediately to limit sales of the infringing property: greater success would seem to indicate greater damage to me... and an infringing person who profited handsomely by her infringement of my work would then have assets to pay for the judgement I would then attempt to obtain against her (or, more likely, the settlement my lawyers would negotiate on my behalf).

4. I wonder, then, whether Mr. Petersen's initial post expresses a personal opinion (possibly connected to feeling of concern regarding potential similarities to the prior work of apparent friend Dr. Knizia), is animated by some form of business concern (a company that sometimes goes to lengths to license precursor games [and may have gone to the trouble in respect of En Garde and an as-yet-in-development game] upset that a rival appears not to have gone to that time and expense), and/or just exhibits some quirk of personality?

5. While we are all on the topic of copyright law and not being an attorney myelf, I am left wondering how the courts would treat this thread in the context of defamation law?

Anyhow, just my 2 ep worth.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddie the Cranky Gamer
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
I think you neglected to notice that Fantasy Flight Games, the company, has no interest here. So its not a big company vs small company problem at all.

My line of reasoning certainly has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the claim being baseless, incorrect, and simply wrong.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
New Zealand
Dunedin
flag msg tools
petercox1001 wrote:
Frankly, as a writer...


"As a writer", you must know that it isn't the idea, or the plot, or the characters, or any other element, but what you do with it. "As a writer,". you must often be confronted with people willing to 'sell you their idea' for 50% of a book's profits, as if the Idea is the soul of a novel. "As a writer", you of course know that it's all in the work you do with the idea.

"As a writer", you must acknowledge that paying attention to what other writers are doing with an eye towards 'who has stolen what' is idiotic and counterproductive. And "as a writer", you must realize the folly of applying arbitrary marketplace morality to this stuff, because this ain't writing, and the law is quite clear - game mechanics are fair game.

"As a writer", you must realize that nearly all successful writers acknowledge that influence is an undeniable fact of Art, and that writers often riff directly off one another, as Jonathan Lethem eloquently points out here:

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/02/0081387

"As a writer," of course, you know that concerns about originality thrive amongst people who aren't really writers.

As writers, you and I are better off worrying about how much, and how well, we've written today. And Mr. Peterson is better off worrying about dumping the cheap marketing pastiches his company has been passing off as boardgames during the past year, confronting the reality that videogame/movie/fiction "properties" don't matter if the game is underdeveloped and overproduced, and he'd be well-served getting back to actually producing games that excite people again.
68 
 Thumb up
0.20
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddie the Cranky Gamer
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
wolvendancer wrote:

As writers, you and I are better off worrying about how much, and how well, we've written today. And Mr. Peterson is better off worrying about dumping the cheap marketing pastiches his company has been passing off as boardgames during the past year, confronting the reality that videogame/movie/fiction "properties" don't matter if the game is underdeveloped and overproduced, and he'd be well-served getting back to actually producing games that excite people again.


Surely you must realize that, in terms of sales, these underdeveloped and overproduced games do just fine. So while I appreciate your message and panache, your conclusion is ultimately off the mark.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Drickman
United States
Ukiah
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In my opinion, Mr. Peterson clearly didn't show the best judgement in his replies, especially as the president of FFG. But he is human, and he, like everyone else, makes mistakes. He obviously has a close friendship with Dr. Knizia. I know I have overreacted before when felt like someone I cared about was being wronged. Nothing in this thread has impacted my willingness to support FFG or Sirlin games.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kiren Maelwulf
Canada
Richmond
BC
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Games, like writing or visual media, evolve over time influenced by works of the previous generation. It is unrealistic to expect a list of everything that may have had mechanics utilized in the new products development. Descent is influenced by Heroquest, Runewars was influenced by Warrior Knights, and every FFG LCG is influenced by MTG. They take a mechanic that exists and change or add to it to produce a new game. If the new product is so similar to the old that it is difficult to tell what has been added or changed, then that is a copyright issue and should left for the courts to decide on.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
darksurtur
United States
Arlington
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
petercox1001 wrote:
Art Damage, that is a good post, but I don't see what you are saying as contradicting my point.

If I write a script or a novel, and someone adapts it, then I'd expect some credit for the work I've done. Say someone makes a film out of my book. Or uses the characters in a sequel. Well, I'd get something for it - bare minimum some acknowledgement.

That doesn't mean I don't understand the concept of artistic influence.

At the end of the day, it basically it comes down to what is the degree of similarity is. I find both games to be astoundingly similar, to the point where it is an adaptation or a expansion rather than a new game. Hey, others might disagree. Some even say they are nothing alike, though for the life of me, I can't complrehend how they would have come to that conclusion if you look honestly at how both games function.

Yeah, a court has decided you can't copyright those mechanics. That's nothing to do with morals or ethics though. Those are a little more arbitrary. It is my subjective opinion that the copying of Knizia's mechanics without proper acknowledgement is inethical. Does that mean I think there should be some law banning the game, or allowing Knezia to sue. No necessarily, because I understand the value of allowing creativity to flourish. Although obviously there must be a balance.

That doesn't mean I don't think someone is a douche if they wholesale copy something and then refuse to acknowledge it.

So hey, it's subjective to an extent and I accept that. But don't patronise me with some stawman argument about 'artistic influence' please.

EDITS: politeness added.


And I really don't find anything unethical in using ideas that someone else has CHOSEN to share with the world (if IP law doesn't prevent it). If you don't want anyone else to use your ideas, don't share them with anyone. Trying to have it both ways seems to be the immoral stance.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charlie Gook
msg tools
petercox1001 wrote:
EXACTLY the same.


Quote:

Damn addressing the actual facts.


The cool thing about your post is that you don't do what you say you do
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Garcia
msg tools
Dear Mr. Peter Cox,

I think it is sort of a misunderstanding here. You are saying that Flash Duel and En Garde are "remarkably similar in mechanics. In fact, shamelessly so."

This is actually contrary to almost every other post in this thread, which have done a great job explaining the many differences. I think Dr Sirlin would be sad that his improvements were ignored.

You are entitled to your opinion, though. Everyone has a different level for what constitutes shameless similar mechanics.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kiren Maelwulf
Canada
Richmond
BC
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sirlin actually did admit that specific mechanics have been used before, he does acknowledge that. I'm not sure if some people expect more, such as a listing of every game that had an influence over the new product. I would point out though, by that logic every new game/song/movie/book should have a listing of hundreds of sources that aided to the development of that mediums modern form.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kiren Maelwulf
Canada
Richmond
BC
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
petercox1001 wrote:

Well again, it's the 'degree' to which you see the similarity in the scale of being a minor influence complete plagiarism. Obviously it would be ridiculous to list every minor influence. But you might expect a film to acknowledge it was adapted from a book, for example.


I completely agree Peter. Taking your analogy of a book adaptation, it would take the whole story or at least a significant portion to be an adaptation. A move about a killer clown for instance may be influenced by 'It' but I would question if that would be enough to warrent a need for official aknowledgement. A lot of games on BGG, and many by FFG, use a mechanic here and there from other games. In many cases entire game categories have developed based on a single game, for example almost all new deck builders have very similar mechanics to Dominion. As far as I have seen reading the rule of FD and EG, keeping in mind I have not played either, a mechanic from EG was used but that is where it ends. FD adds a whole whack of new mechanics, gamemodes, theme, etc. Enough in my opinion anyways, that it is different enough not to require any further acknowledgement.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sime Mardesic
Australia
Bacchus Marsh
Victoria
flag msg tools
It is interesting that Sirlin comes from a background of computer games, and as was pointed out in a post a page or two back, similar statements regarding the similarity between En Garde and Flash Duel could be leveled at many of the 2D fighting games that exist. Those games exist without expectation of acknowledgment of the initial designer as far as I can tell. So I think it is perfectly understandable that whilst the decorum in board games might be to credit the designer one is inspired by, someone originating from an industy where that isn't the status quo may not.

This is of course independant of the appropriateness of having this conversation in public, which is poor form of course, but can be easily explained away as an emotional, human error. I am not sure the inappropriateness has been acknowledged by the original poster and an apology given. I am just glad that Sirlin has had the tact to avoid the discussion, hopefully with the intent of resolving it diplomatically.

Sirlin appears to be creating a universe. His design sensibility is assymetric, balanced, competitive games set in the Fantasy Strike universe. His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original. The two accompanying games further expand this universe of characters, and as always attempt to achieve an assymetric balance. To my mind this isn't a designer that is seeking out designs to copy and profit from in a malicious way. He is instead an incredibly talented designer, applying unique bent to board games. Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel both have their seed in existing games but the execution is all Sirlin.

For some reason this makes it OK with me. If I thought he was shamelessly rebadging things to scum a profit I'd understand the discontent at the lack of licensing. Instead I think he has been inspired by a concept and thought, then completely fashioned those basic ideas into a unique and interesting work. Again, his flag ship product shows he is a far more capable designer than one that purely steals ideas. Perhaps it is a short cut to have borrowed so much inspiration for Flash Duel. Certainly Puzzle Strike wouldn't have existed as quickly or at all without there first having been Dominion. To me the final product is different enough each time to stand on its own. If courtesy demands more in the board gaming community then that is something Sirlin will have to address/learn, and he may well be addressing in private as we speculate.

I will not be boycotting anyone as a result of this thread. Fantasy Flight make stunning looking games that excite plenty of people. Sirlin is a breath of fresh air and I am loving his appearance in the board gaming community. Knizia made Ra and I love Ra. Hopefully everyone ends up happy and similar issues get handle better in the future.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom
United States
Grand Rapids
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
inb4 Jay Tummelson submits a post defending Donald X.'s design.




Sorry, I couldn't resist.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sime Mardesic
Australia
Bacchus Marsh
Victoria
flag msg tools
petercox1001 wrote:
Well said! Okay, it's not gonna get better than that so I'll respectfully desist posting.


No need to desist. The conversation has been fascinating, some really thoughtful posts. This wouldn't be as interesting if it wasn't a grey area.

I should also mention I have never created any work of note so I am less likely to be incensed by someone pinching my genius.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Drickman
United States
Ukiah
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
petercox1001 wrote:
Well said! Okay, it's not gonna get better than that so I'll respectfully desist posting.


I can beat that, watch...

Bacon!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Garcia
msg tools
simem wrote:
His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original.


Highly original? Some would say it fails to credit the inventor of Rock Paper Scissors, a game with which it shares large similarities.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sime Mardesic
Australia
Bacchus Marsh
Victoria
flag msg tools
garcia1000 wrote:
simem wrote:
His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original.


Highly original? Some would say it fails to credit the inventor of Rock Paper Scissors, a game with which it shares large similarities.


I suspected that would come up but my I couldn't find which designer would take umbrage to the theft. In reality the points made regarding Flash Duels similarities are more interesting than Puzzle Strike/Dominion and Yomi/Paper-Scissors-Rock.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Allers
Germany
Berlin
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
This is an important issue for game designers and publishers, and it seems it is one that can only be won or lost in the court of public opinion, as the other courts are too expensive for us (it's not as if Dr. Knizia is reading this from his villa in Monaco, neither is Mr. Peterson). Furthermore, the laws simply do no offer much protection, and therefore it is--if not legal--at least, admirable to contact the original designer, when one is knowingly basing his or her own work on that designer's previous work.

For the sake of argument on this particular instance, I would propose the following scenario:
Gryphon Games announces a new Dr. Knizia game based on his previous hit, "En Garde." The new version offers many new twists, including the possibility for team play and characters with special powers.

And many people wonder why Dr. Knizia produces so many spin-off's and variations of his own games. He's simply trying to get them out there before other designers do spin-off's and variations of his games.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eddie the Cranky Gamer
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
flag msg tools
petercox1001 wrote:


(though I guess I shouldn't under-estimate an individual's capacity for self-delusion)




Well said.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Placerville
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
simem wrote:
It is interesting that Sirlin comes from a background of computer games, and as was pointed out in a post a page or two back, similar statements regarding the similarity between En Garde and Flash Duel could be leveled at many of the 2D fighting games that exist. Those games exist without expectation of acknowledgment of the initial designer as far as I can tell. So I think it is perfectly understandable that whilst the decorum in board games might be to credit the designer one is inspired by, someone originating from an industy where that isn't the status quo may not.

This is of course independant of the appropriateness of having this conversation in public, which is poor form of course, but can be easily explained away as an emotional, human error. I am not sure the inappropriateness has been acknowledged by the original poster and an apology given. I am just glad that Sirlin has had the tact to avoid the discussion, hopefully with the intent of resolving it diplomatically.

Sirlin appears to be creating a universe. His design sensibility is assymetric, balanced, competitive games set in the Fantasy Strike universe. His major work in this is Yomi which I thought was a highly original. The two accompanying games further expand this universe of characters, and as always attempt to achieve an assymetric balance. To my mind this isn't a designer that is seeking out designs to copy and profit from in a malicious way. He is instead an incredibly talented designer, applying unique bent to board games. Puzzle Strike and Flash Duel both have their seed in existing games but the execution is all Sirlin.

For some reason this makes it OK with me. If I thought he was shamelessly rebadging things to scum a profit I'd understand the discontent at the lack of licensing. Instead I think he has been inspired by a concept and thought, then completely fashioned those basic ideas into a unique and interesting work. Again, his flag ship product shows he is a far more capable designer than one that purely steals ideas. Perhaps it is a short cut to have borrowed so much inspiration for Flash Duel. Certainly Puzzle Strike wouldn't have existed as quickly or at all without there first having been Dominion. To me the final product is different enough each time to stand on its own. If courtesy demands more in the board gaming community then that is something Sirlin will have to address/learn, and he may well be addressing in private as we speculate.

I will not be boycotting anyone as a result of this thread. Fantasy Flight make stunning looking games that excite plenty of people. Sirlin is a breath of fresh air and I am loving his appearance in the board gaming community. Knizia made Ra and I love Ra. Hopefully everyone ends up happy and similar issues get handle better in the future.



You brought up a very good point about David's background. I have never seen Tekken credit Street Fighter, or Battlefield credit Call of Duty, or any JRPG credit Square. In fact, when I start to think about it, video game designers actually rarely discourage the sharing of ideas. They leech off of each other's innovations. Directors of movies rarely credit other directors for their movies. Car manufacturers don't credit each other for new designs. It seems like Mr. Petersen wants this to be an exception.

The same still seams to apply to the majority of the board game industry also.

Did Yugioh or Pokemon TCG or WoW TCG credit Magic? Has White Wolf ever credited TSR? Did Privateer Press credit Games Workshop? Did Milton Bradly ever ask for credit when games started to advance pass Candy Land and The Game of Life?

To be clear when I say credit I am asking if the parties involved ever paid for a license or royalties to invent their product.

We all no the answer. So no need to actually reply.

Bottom line for me is that if Mr. Petersen is so afraid of Sirlin as competition then maybe he should up his game. I am surprised he isn't calling out Soda Pop minis for Super Dungeon Explore copying Descent.

As I have said before, I personally think FFG was making a game very similar to En Guarde/Flash Duel. FFG got the doctor's permission and now they are mad that they can't even compete with Flash Duel or corner that side of the market.

It's okay though because now they understand how Richard Hamblen and Andrea Angiolino might feel. whistle

11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.