Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
There is some talk about the Bloodletter Upgrade going on. It may or may not be overpowered, I think the actual problem is another one.
With the statistics thread pretty dead I want to present some numbers from my own personal records.
Lets put in in relation to the base game first. I played that 58 times, not counting a single 3 player game. Wins per god Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh are 17/18/15/8 or in precentages 29/31/26/14. Good enough for me. At least each god can win, even though Slaanesh seems somewhat tougher which may or may not be true for another group.
(I think the latest FAQ changes may actually help a little as now for instance PerverseInfiltration may also score the ruiners bonus).
I just did the same for the HornedRat expansion. My scope of data is limited to 16 plays as of yet, lets not forget this. But then it still tells stories. Of the 16 games, 12 were 5 player, in 4 of them the Rat did not play. Wins: 5/0/7/3/1 or 31/0/44/19/8 in %
(There is a small rounding error and the Rat relates to the 12 games played not 16).
Now the current talk is that Khorne is overpowered. To my experience I can say yes he is strong but not THAT strong. Not as strong as Tzeentch anyways. And the real problem is Nurgle taking no win at all.
In the base game, it took me 7 plays to see each god win at least once. We were initially worried about Khorne. Within 14 plays, each god won at least two games. So that all worked out better than initially expected.
I just want to tell all the folks out there who played two or three games where they got hammered by Khorne that this is by far not the whole story 
The problem I am seeing is not so much one god winning games more often than others. But rather one god winning significantly less than others. Because at some point noone wants to play this one anymore. If he wins less, he is a challenge and welcome by some players. But when he is not competetive, its a pain.
One god winning more often draws attention from everybody else over time. So I think this evens out more likely than one god being way too challenged.
-
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
As much as I'd like to expand this data I think the tolerance towards Nurgles challenge has already been exhausted. From challenge to nuisance. Stripped of his VP capabilities his dial is simply too long.
Tonight, I'll rather play another game than cast on someone to spend his time on yet another wasted effort.
-
russell gowlett
United Kingdom
-
I have won once as Nurgle in the expansion, out of 5 plays, so it is possible.
Has anyone ever considered houseruling him if they find him too weak in their group?
Like maybe skipping the 2nd tick (remove 1 corruption), as that tick is bollocks. It still wont let him get a dial win, but at least he will be able to get an upgrade at a similar time to everyone else, instead of waiting until half the game is gone for an upgrade.
or even better, letting Nurgle start the game with 1 upgrade in play 
 - Khorne
 - nurgle
 Tzeentch
 - horned rat
Where is Slaanesh??
-
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
I dont doubt that it is possible to win as Nurgle. Even if he does win a game he will still be nowhere near competetive.
Games go either Khorne or Tzeentch take it, and if they dont play as well, Slaanesh or the Rat might chime one in.
-
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
-
Joel, I've really enjoyed reading your comments about this game. Based on what you've seen, would you recommend not using the Morrslieb set for the base game gods? I don't get to play as much as I'd like and it would be nice if our group thought that each god had a more or less fair chance at winning.
I open the question up to anyone, of course. Considering the concerns about Nurgle, should I just play the Rat with its card set but keep the base game card sets for the base game gods? It's not essential to me that each god have as good a chance at a dial victory as a VP victory.
-
-
The problem is that the new card sets are great and allow the gods to get more of their warrior/greater deamon figures into play and really switch up the playing styles.
If you don't get a chance to play the game that often and haven't played the base game very much then I would just throw the Rat in there for a 5th player and use base-game everything else.
As to Nurgle NOT winning enough. Could reusing the base game cards help? Advancing him one tick from the outset as others have suggested? I also wonder if maybe taking the warrior upgrade card would allow quicker ruination and often a 1st place position? If all the warriors are in one location, Khorne can slaughter them all but dropping 6 corruption will provide a significant advantage to the Nurgle player.
-
Paul Sinkovits
United States
Glendale
Arizona
-
We've had Nurgle wins. We had one just a couple of games ago. I don't think Nurgle is underpowered. There is no way he's going to get a dial tick win, but he's still pretty good at nailing up the VP.
For us, the prevalence of wins goes in the following order.
1. Khorne
2. Slannesh
3. Tzeentch
4. Nurgle
5. Horned Rat
-
I didn't do it
Canada
Gatineau
Québec
-
We didn't had any Nurgle win yet with 5 players games. But we also only had one Khorne win. Slaanesh is our current leader in wins. The rat didn't win either yet, but that mostly because he's much harder to play. The expansion seems to force all gods to be a lot more aggressive that in the base game. In the hornet rat, we found that killing Khorne units is a lot more effective than running away from him.
-
Joseph Cochran
United States
Costa Mesa
California
-
Umbratus wrote: I dont doubt that it is possible to win as Nurgle. Even if he does win a game he will still be nowhere near competetive.
I've been sucked into new Essen games lately, but I still want to get back into a game as Morrslieb Nurgle. From my own experience, as M. Nurgle pre-FAQ I was able to race very effectively to a point cap in turn 4 twice, but because I lacked just enough tools to get over the hump I was easily passed in turn 5. With the extra point capabilities of being ruiner I think that it becomes something can do, but I haven't had the chance to put theory to game board yet.
-
Andrew P
United States
San Francisco
California
-
I much prefer the Morrsleib deck - with 20 games, it has retained my interest far longer than the base set. Nevertheless I think Nurgle has a noticeably tougher time (in games with Khorne) and have considered houserules to buff his dial and even the win rates a bit.
-
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
Brother Jim wrote: Joel, I've really enjoyed reading your comments about this game. Based on what you've seen, would you recommend not using the Morrslieb set for the base game gods? I don't get to play as much as I'd like and it would be nice if our group thought that each god had a more or less fair chance at winning.
I open the question up to anyone, of course. Considering the concerns about Nurgle, should I just play the Rat with its card set but keep the base game card sets for the base game gods? It's not essential to me that each god have as good a chance at a dial victory as a VP victory.
Thx James. I am not sure I can offer advice here.
For me, the only real point of critique with the base game were the upgrades. They got too scripted too quickly, with some being clearly superior over others.
With the expansion we got some new upgrades which are in general better than the old ones. They offer more situational options and are worth considering more. However, there are still some 'dead' cards. Also the chaos cards are 'better' in some regards. But then it is not much give or take with the old ones imho as there are also some real bummers with the new ones. ChokingStench sucks and I have never really seen anyone use Transmorgrify for instance. What you also get is alot of rules fuss with the expansion which has by now been mostly cleared out but not entirely.
So if you get to a questionable balance, compared to the base game, there is actually very little reason to play the expansion. Especially, if you arent bothered or worn out by the upgrades yet.
I dont necessarily have to see each god win by both dial and VP either. Given the assymetrical nature of the game I am actually quite fine with some gods preferring one way over the other while at least some can go either way. If balance is put in question by that, the expansion is going a wrong way.
So, all in all, I am rating the expansion LOWER than the base game, against all hype and advantages in some points, it didnt really deliver for me in the end.
-
magic gecko
Australia
Melbin Oz
-
Hi.... Minority Opinion Time
Nurgle did take a hit in the expansion, for which I am in favour.
Base game, Nurgle is too simple, easy, and WAY too Strong.
I have played TWO games Online, both as Nurgle.
Both games I got to 50 points.
The first was base game, the second Expanded. I won the second.
Nurgle works different in the expansion. Trying to play Nurgle in the same way as the base game just don't work. It is not just about cultists and grabbing the Stupidly overpowered Provender of Ruin. Nurgle post expansion requires LOTS more thinking.
The chaos cards are the primary reason for this. Read them, and they are MUCH weaker than the base set if you are trying to get most of your corruption from just placing cultists. But they DO work.
Conquering areas so neighbouring areas corrupt out is not how it normally works. Nurgle is WAY more cerebral to win with, and I think requires much more experience.
I rate the Expansion as one of the best ever expansions for any wargame ever. We just don't wanna play with the basic set much any more.
The HR should be recording less wins than everyone else. It works different to the other gods, and is WAY confusing to start with. It is an awesome addition though, and can win just like the other gods once it is understood.
Slaan is no where near as boring. (2 Defence cultists, how innovative!)
TZ is a way less predictable god of change. (hey Wow, he teleported a Khorne Bloodletter, how predictable!)
And Khorne is not just about killing figures. (Well, 1% of us thought Khorne was about Points, but who is counting)
And... The Khorne Bloodletter VP Extravaganza is Stupidly Broken.
That Upgrade does not smell broken. Khorne going VP is just not the natural way to play.
Claiming win percentages and pointing out khorne doesn't ALWAYS win is just not relevent. In almost all games played by people reading this, Khorne does not get the 2VP per kill upgrade as the first upgrade. Not yet anyway. The real numbers are the ones that have Khorne getting that ridiculous upgrade on turn 2, and winning on turn 4...AGAIN.
The entire rest of the expansion is Wonderful.
If an Expansion like this to not contain something that has crossed the line would be just unbelieveable. It radically changes the game, in many ways. Frankly I am astonished there is not anything else in there that is just wrong. But the Khorne Warrior upgrade will be GONE in a couple of months.
-
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
If Nurgle gains 50+VP and doesnt win, he still lost. I have also seen that a couple of times. Even more often than that, I saw him take 4X VP in turn 4 and then also dont win.
I have absolutely no doubt that Nurgle is able to win games in the expansion. I have to stress that again. I am also quite aware that he plays very differently.
However, I am also convinced that he will, over time, take considerably less wins than others, especially Khorne and Tzeentch.
Nerfing Nurgle because he got a little more than average wins in the base game is actually a bad thing.
I am just witnessing another failed 4844VP Turn 4 effort. It was one of the best ones so far. Infested Colony upgrade almost did the job in combination with ChokingStench, but 2 stacked Skitterleaps cut it short.
My fellow PBEM players certainly do have more than a handful games under their belly to base their moves and strategies on. All of them. They all get the short end of the stick with Nurgle. We're handling the Bloodletter Upgrade quite well actually. So far noone was really able to run away with it big time. It helped win a game or two, but nothing unusual. Havoc wins more, alot more actually. Only time I steamrolled a game with the Bloodletters was a turn 3(!) win, but that was not a PBEM. I was having extremly lucky rolls and too many victims around.
-
James
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
-
Joel, your thoughts here do concern me about the expansion's balance. I'm wondering if any of the variants mentioned in Bryan's thread here would be acceptable for buffing Nurgle.
I could see Fantasy Flight posting an official set of variants for increasing or decreasing the power of each god, actually. Principally, this could deal with nerfing Khorne's Bloodletter upgrade and buffing Nurgle, but it needn't be admitted to be so (it could be a set of tweaks up or down for each god). This actually is a toolset that I can imagine might have been in the expansion originally though I know that balance is so delicate in this game.
-
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
What also worries me and is about to kill my enthusiasm for this game right now is this.
I'm playing my 3rd game in a row where Vermin Outbreak is up. To be frank, its a pain in the ass. Summoning costs increase by 1 and dice are limited to 2 for each player for each region.
Now that is not too bad if you have it around for a while. The problem is that this card is not related to the event tokens and thus it is not pushed off the track when a new event related card is up.
That means that it will stick around for a minimum of 2 turns, more likely it will stick for 3, 4 or even more turns. Alot of OW cards have immediate effects and dont add to the track.
When a single cultist costs 2pp, you're not going anywhere. The game is severly crippled. Fun for a while, but not for a whole game, let alone 3 in a row, drawing the event very early each time.
Fellow players suggested that events should be moved right on the track each turn, also when immediate effect cards are drawn. Not sure I want to mess with that right now, but I've certainly had my share of Vermin Outbreak by now.
-
-
The win-stats doesn't always show the full truth. Sometimes I have actually been just ONE die roll away from winning. And that doesn't show in the stats.
Umbratus wrote: Not sure I want to mess with that right now, but I've certainly had my share of Vermin Outbreak by now.
Well, simply remove that event if it makes the game boring. No need to torture yourself. 
-
Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
-
LupusX wrote: The win-stats doesn't always show the full truth. Sometimes I have actually been just ONE die roll away from winning. And that doesn't show in the stats.
You know, thats true. And I've been considering to value the stats. Like giving a high value for each win, an even higher one for a steamroll win. Some points for the runner up and none if you're really left behind. I could do that with most of my collected data, but not all of it.
LupusX wrote: Well, simply remove that event if it makes the game boring. No need to torture yourself.
True as well. I think I'll also remove the rest of the unnecessary expansion stuff. The base game was rather brilliant after all
-
Jason Rupp
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
-
A win is a win. If a god (nurgle for instance) constantly gets close to winning but rarely does win, it doesn't matter that he often gets close. If he's designed in a way that he is often one turn short of winning, he's not balanced correctly.
This is a game where it is often in the hands of the players to keep everyone in balance. It works great and sometimes allows Nurgle to pull off a win. It's still not very fun to play as the weakest god. Nurgle just isn't fun... he has a lot of cards that don't help. He takes the longest to get upgrades (which are a bit weak compared to other gods as well). He is the only god that can't realistically win both ways. He's just not balanced.
I share Joel's thoughts on the expansion. My group has the same problems. The expansion is not nearly as balanced (or fun imo) as the base game.
-
-
I've been saying from within the first week of Horned Rat's release that Nurgle was the weakest. I usually play him, and I usually come in second place. But second place is just the first loser, and after about 15 games of playing as him and against him, I just think he is terrible and have all but given up on his as being viable. In my group there is a fairly even distribution of wins for the other gods, with Horned Rat a bit less, which is to be expected, but Nurgle has yet to record a single win.
I've thought about adjusting the rules a bit to give him an advantage. The main thing I've thought of is house-ruling his bullshit extra dial tick for an upgrade situation. I realize the dials were made with the base game in mind, and I just think he is too handicapped now as a result of this.
Beyond this, his cards do seem a bit on the weak side and not entirely in synch with his playstyle. He needs more cards that let him spread corruption and dominate; all the cards that give him more ticks are just pointless.
-
-
magic gecko wrote: Nurgle works different in the expansion. Trying to play Nurgle in the same way as the base game just don't work. It is not just about cultists and grabbing the Stupidly overpowered Provender of Ruin. Nurgle post expansion requires LOTS more thinking.
The chaos cards are the primary reason for this. Read them, and they are MUCH weaker than the base set if you are trying to get most of your corruption from just placing cultists. But they DO work.
Conquering areas so neighbouring areas corrupt out is not how it normally works. Nurgle is WAY more cerebral to win with, and I think requires much more experience.
You said that Nurgle requires more thinking and more experience, but didn't go into specifics. How does Nurgle win in the expansion? I honestly can't figure it out...
-
Peter Martyn
United States
Guilford
VT
-
discombob wrote: - Khorne - nurgle Tzeentch - horned rat Where is Slaanesh??
He's, um, running a train.
-
-
I'm actually going to try a house-rule of skipping the second dial tick for Nurgle to give him an upgrade at the same time as everyone else. I'm a strong believer in taking baby steps when it comes to balancing tweaks, and this one seems obvious, simple, and could actually make a significant difference to Nurgle (along with the FAQ ruling on Ruiner bonus being any time during the round).
Will need to test further and see.
-
-
Brother Jim wrote: I could see Fantasy Flight posting an official set of variants for increasing or decreasing the power of each god, actually. Principally, this could deal with nerfing Khorne's Bloodletter upgrade and buffing Nurgle
My current thoughts on this are to limit the Bloodletter upgrade to 1pt per kill and to skip Nurgle's second dial tick "Remove 1 Corruption".
-
Andrew P
United States
San Francisco
California
-
Please let us know how it goes with Nurgle.
-
-
fateswanderer wrote: Please let us know how it goes with Nurgle.
I was a bit disappointed about the abrupt end end of this thread.
In our group we also have the problem with Nurgle never winning. The games are totally dominated by Slaanesh (40%), Tzeench (33%), followed by Khorne (23%) and The Horned Rat (17%), and at the bottom: Nurgle (0%). The percentages are p = (number of games won) / (number of games played).
I think, however, that the general problem with board games is that they are not played enough overall to develop various strategies. An online version with games that can be played faster and with different people would help.
Also, I'd very much like to see well-done battle reports with commentary. Such thinks are very common in video games nowadays and contribute a lot to a high competitive playstyle overall. Talking actual strategies would also allow to come up with better insights about the nature of Nurgle. I'm not sure how this would be done best for board games.
As a side note (because someone mentioned it earlier), I do not think that nerfing the Khorne Bloodletter upgrade to give one point instead of two is appropriate. First, Khnorne is strong, but not that strong. Second, it does not help out Nurgle. And last, but not least, the nerf is just to harsh. I would rather consider contraining the VP to Bloodletter kills only (instead of all kills in regions that contain Bloodletters).
-
|
|
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:00 pm
