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Chris Linneman
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I have been playing on BGO quite a lot lately. I really like the Czech expansion but this one card breaks it for me. It routinely scores 30+ culture with little effort. If combined with the Age 3 Czech leader who lets you use military actions as civil actions it is worth 40+ culture. Even the best Age 3 wonders in the basic game rarely give much more than 20 culture, and they take significantly more effort to make pay off. And I can't take the card out when playing online, so the only real solution is not to use the Czech expansion. A shame, really, since some of the other cards are pretty cool.
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Eric Phillips
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I've played the Czech expansion only once, but I questioned that card too. Having a lot of CAs is already a big advantage for nabbing good Age 3 Wonders. It seems a bit much to make a Wonder that will also give you lots of points for nothing more than having lots of CAs. It means (unlike with FFC and FSF) if you are set up to score big from the Narodni, you are also automatically set up to take it from the 3-CA zone--and probably without spending a whole turn on it.
 
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Mark van den Boer
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I think taking the Narodni Library is a no-brainer. Everyone (providing that they have an Age 2 or 3 government) can score lots of points, regardless of what other tracks they specialize in. Toning down the Narodni Library to 3 points per unused civil action would fix it.
 
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Chris Linneman
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syrinx2112 wrote:
I think taking the Narodni Library is a no-brainer. Everyone (providing that they have an Age 2 or 3 government) can score lots of points, regardless of what other tracks they specialize in. Toning down the Narodni Library to 3 points per unused civil action would fix it.


That would certainly keep it in line with the other Age 3 wonders (~20 points), although you wouldn't need to be set up for it. Just have an Age 2/3 government, which is basically a requirement for winning anyway. It would become an uninteresting, but not broken, wonder. I think it would be better just to remove it.

I wish BGO would apply this 3 culture fix or remove the card, otherwise the Czech expansion is unplayable online, which is a shame.
 
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Mark van den Boer
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There's another discussion on the Narodni library here: http://boardgamingonline.freeforums.org/is-czech-national-li...
 
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Chris Linneman
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I find it hard to believe that anyone is arguing that it's not imbalanced. It seems so much clearly better than any other Age 3 wonder to me. I mean, it rewards you for having something you can't not have--Civil Actions--and which are one of the most important things to make sure you have going into the endgame anyway. The same cannot be said for the other Age 3 wonders. For example, it's possible to be doing quite well and not have any libraries or theatres going into Age 3, yet the wonders that score for those things give less points than Narodni gives for basically doing nothing.

I guess the closest parallel would be Fast Food Chains. It has to score some points no matter who you are in the game. But if you have few workers (say, 10), you will only get maybe 14-15 points for the wonder, whereas if you have few CAs, say 6, you still get 25 points for Narodni. If you have many workers (say, 20), you still only get about 25 points for FFC. If you have many CAs (say, 9) you get a ridiculous 40 for Narodni (more if you have Tomas!) And it's a lot harder to get 20 workers than 9 CAs.

The wonder would be at least more balanced, if uninteresting, if it awarded 3 culture per unused CA. I almost wonder if this was a typo.
 
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Mark van den Boer
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I like the parallel with Fast Food Chains. I'm guessing there was an attempt to balance the Narodni Library by saying it goes away at the start of Age 4, but that attempt was not successful.
 
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Chris Linneman
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syrinx2112 wrote:
I like the parallel with Fast Food Chains. I'm guessing there was an attempt to balance the Narodni Library by saying it goes away at the start of Age 4, but that attempt was not successful.


Ya, I've never seen that be an issue.
 
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David Einstein
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I have been thinking a fair bit about the Narodni Library (I was one of the players in the game that caused this thread to be initiated), and agree it is very strong, but am not certain it is broken. In this thread we have been comparing it straight up against other wonders, but that is not a completely fair comparison. In order to get the full benefit of the Library you have to sacrifice a full turns worth of civil actions in Age III (and NOT age IV).

I haven't seen any consideration of the opportunity cost in culture of those actions. Playing Techs, building buildings, grabbing yellow cards can all generate a significant number of culture, both through end of turn culture production and end of game scoring. And there are also yellow cards to consider, some of which directly give culture in not insignificant amounts. The fact that you can't complete this wonder in Age IV is significant, as that is when you are typically faced with civil actions that can't do anything...

I am not saying it isn't strong, but first space flight usually generate above 30 points for me and is often completed in Age IV, after maximum techs have been built, and it doesn't completely remove an extra turn of civil actions in Age III. Age III always seems to go by in very few turns, at least to me, in part because everyone has lots of civil actions! (Yes I realize that last bit is part of the argument of why the library is too powerful). It is powerful, I just don't know if it should be considered broken.






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Chris Linneman
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deinstein wrote:
I have been thinking a fair bit about the Narodni Library (I was one of the players in the game that caused this thread to be initiated), and agree it is very strong, but am not certain it is broken. In this thread we have been comparing it straight up against other wonders, but that is not a completely fair comparison. In order to get the full benefit of the Library you have to sacrifice a full turns worth of civil actions in Age III (and NOT age IV).


I think you are mistaken. You can still use the CAs after the wonder is built. You just have to build 3 stages, then wait till your next turn, then build the last stage as your first action, then you can use the rest of your CAs. At least that's how BGO handles it.
 
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David desJardins
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QBert80 wrote:
You just have to build 3 stages, then wait till your next turn, then build the last stage as your first action, then you can use the rest of your CAs. At least that's how BGO handles it.


Wait. The Narodni Library gives you 5 culture for each civil action that you don't use. Are you saying that you are building the wonder, scoring 5 culture for each civil action that you haven't used yet, and then still using those actions? That's obviously not the intention, no wonder it seems broken.
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Chris Linneman
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I'm just saying that's how BGO implements it. Which could be totally wrong, and would explain why it's broken on that site. If that was not the intention, the card is worded poorly, and needs to be re-written. Time would have to tell if it would be balanced. It would still be strong, but not nearly as so. Sacrificing a turn in Age 3 is a big deal.

The wording on the card is: Score 5 culture for each of your unused Civil Actions. The only requirement is that they have not been used. There is nothing on the card saying you need to spend those CAs when the wonder is completed. If that is the intention, which I agree would be more balanced, it's certainly not clear.
 
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David desJardins
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QBert80 wrote:
The wording on the card is: Score 5 culture for each of your unused Civil Actions.


This expansion has only ever been published in Czech, right? If you're quoting from an English translation, I think the translator got it wrong.

What it says here on BGG on the main game page is "You gain 5 (culture) for each of your civil actions you didn't used this turn." Which is not very well written English, but it's pretty clear to me the intention is to only award culture for actions that you don't actually use.

I tried typing the Czech text on the card here



into a translator, and it seems to say something like, "In the round of completion for each unused civil action collect 5 culture." Which is good enough for me. I mean, the whole idea of it rewarding you for building it before using your actions that turn, but not after, makes no sense, right? But rewarding you for actually not using the actions, does make sense.
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Chris Linneman
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OK, looking at Marcin's translation I can say it is definitely implemented incorrectly on BGO. That explains why it has seemed so overpowered. I wonder why no one has caught this before.
 
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Eric Phillips
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The time I played the Czech expansion, BGO implemented the Narodni properly. The CAs that scored points were not available for further use that turn.
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Chris Linneman
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They changed it recently. Thanks guys for being on the ball on this one.
 
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Greg Jones
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Actually, I thought it wasn't too broken the broken way. To get the best value out of it, you still had to have it nearly complete on the third-to-last turn, so you could complete it on the first action of the second-to-last turn. That's a lot more challenging than most Age III wonders, which are most efficiently completed on the last action of the last (Age IV) turn. So it's reasonable for it to be worth more.
 
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Shane Larsen
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It is definitely the mos challenging Wonder to complete. In a recent game, player X took it and had what seemed to be plenty of time to complete it. But after all three of the us saw how much culture he would gain, we all made it our mission to advance the game to Age IV. It worked, and he lost his Library.
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