Bio Automaton
United States
Oregon
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So, we've sat down for a couple sessions so far and so far the players have been massacred horribly each time. We're left scratching our heads as to why this is. The Consul is doing what he should, taking full advantage of his abilities. The players have cut swathes through enemies, bum rushed the nearest spawner on the second turn, gone for early loot, and nothing seems to work.
The sheer quantity of spawns leaves the players quickly overwhelmed.
It doesn't help that the rulebook is vague, but can anyone offer clarifications on spawning rules or what they see as potential misinterpretations that could result in games going consistently pear-shaped for the players?
Any help would be appreciated. We really want to love this game, but so far it's just resulting in a lot of rage.
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John Paul Messerly
United States Sherman Oaks California
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The easiest way to figure out what is going wrong would be to post a detailed play session report. What size games are you playing and at what stage are the hero's getting destroyed?
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Zachary Wolf
United States Idaho Falls Idaho
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Hmm, yes more details on how you are running a normal combat might help... I have found just the opposite to be true... I have run 3 Games, and I feel great fear that the Consul may not be able to ever win.
the last Game I played was a 5 Player 'Super' Version - and the Consul got quite close to pulling off a victory, with one player killed (twice cause he rezzed,) and 2 other characters withen 1 point of death and a 'fire' status effect on them that was going to burn them down when they activated... but those 2 were saved by an effective 'Ranger/Healer' and Victory was snatched from the Consul and handed to the Heroes.
The thing was, that to get 'that close' I realized AFTER the game, that the Boss's were using the 'loot benifits' that are only ment for Denziens and Minions!
So, I'm back to being worried that the Dungeon's aren't going to be very Challenging to my players, unless I 'beef' them up somehow.
1st question... your not letting your minions use hearts or potions are you? I can see that being very Game changing... I just figured I'd ask... the hearts n pot's count as 'blanks or misses' for the Consul.
more details like that might help... I have also found that a re-read of the rules after a play session really helps me see how things that I did wrong in one session could be fixed in the next play through. so, I'd suggest that... unless you have a perfect memory or something fun like that - if that's the case don't waste your time.
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John Paul Messerly
United States Sherman Oaks California
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Heroes become very hard to kill once they understand how abstract the spacial relationships are between the heroes. It makes more sense if you think of it in video game terns (gauntlet or diablo) rather then as a miniature game.
For instance when a hero gets a heart/potion drop from wounding an enemy, ANY hero anywhere in the dungeon can use the drop. This means a healthy hero can be killing minions and healing another hero with the same actions and they don't even need to be near each other.
This is also true with using potions BUT potions can not only be used on any hero but they can also be used at ANY time (even on the consuls activations)! The ability to use the teleport potion on any character at any time can result in some crazy combos...
Heroes also tend to get more loot, hearts, and potions when they do 3 basic attacks instead of risking everything on a special. Once the characters get enough loot they are rolling so many dice that they are pretty much guaranteed to roll some healing very turn.
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Bobby Warren
United States Glendale Arizona
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The players were slaughtered in the 16-bit games we played. I think it is a combination of not knowing the game and it could be their choice of heroes. I think I'll stick with 16-bit until we have an idea of which heroes work well together and how to play.
I do think that the dragon is too powerful for a beginner group and can lead to frustration and people not liking the game. It would have been a good idea if there were multiple versions of the big boss which could be used, depending on how challenging you wanted the game to be. That wouldn't take any more miniatures, just a couple of cards per level of boss, so it wouldn't be that expensive to add them.
If I was to change the dragon in one way to give beginners a fighting chance, I would remove the global fire trait on all monsters.
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John Paul Messerly
United States Sherman Oaks California
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Ah, Ive only played 8 bit games so far so we haven't faced the dragon yet.
I'm planning on making alternate cards for each boss and mini boss so they don't play exactly the same each game. In the end it would be a bit like Quarriors were the model is always the same but just how strong it's current incarnation is will vary each game.
You could either randomly draw between the bosses cards when they spawn or pick he version that will give the players the closest final battle. This could allow the consul to add or remove a handy cap at the final stage.
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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Clarifications I've noticed:
The Consul gets 4 skulls to spawn from EACH spawn point, unless he has extra Skulls from racking up the kill meter. This means he can't spawn, say, two Ironscales and a Priest from one point, making it a bit slower at first.
Some basic tips:
ALWAYS bring the healing heroes, the ones that heal with potions - either the Ember Mage or the Paladin, quite possibly both. Save the potions for desperate moments (just before a hero gets killed), but you need those potions. The Paladin is probably better because his Healer and the amount of blue dice he rolls gives him an edge healing other heroes, but the Ember Mage also has her AOE Flame Wave - see below. Don't forget that the Paladin can split the hearts he gets from his Healer between multiple heroes.
ALWAYS bring AOE heroes - heroes that can affect more than one square with their attack. I was tearing up an 8-bit dungeon with the Druid and the Ranger until I (foolishly, in retrospect) transformed into Angry Bear and lost the Druid's AOE attack. The Fighter is probably one of the better ones because he can swing his AOE 3 times and the Dangerous part of Cleave hardly matters. The Ranger is good too because she can remove Burn with her ability and Sparkle Burst is a decent AOE. I'd count the Barbarian's ability as an AOE because she can attack 6 times with it!
Don't be afraid to turn Loot into potions when the Loot is of marginal benefit (only two heroes benefit from Dex, for example, and there's a lot of Dex Loot!)
Save the Rogue and the Hexcast Sorceress for Super games, where the Rogue's Luck can swing a great Treasure for you, and the Sorceress can put a hurt on Rex and the Dragon from a distance with Weak and Fragile - not that either are BAD in lower games, mind you; I've seen a Rogue pick up a Treasure chest turn 1 in an 8-bit game and have it be that Backlash-granting shield, talk about an early-game changer.
If you have Candy & Cola, they're incredible in Super games, fueling the whole party with potions.
Playing as the Consul most often, I can tell you that the Paladin is the most annoying character, followed closely by the Hearthsworn Fighter. Once that pally gets some extra blues to play with he can heal a LOT, and the Dwarf can cut down an entire horde by himself with Cleave, as well as tanking unexpectedly with his potion - plus the Dwarf is the only hero with 6 hearts on his card. It doesn't hurt that both of them are the tougher characters.
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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One other thing: ALWAYS pick lava boards if you can. Lava is bad for heroes, but worse for the Consul because he can't heal his monsters of Burn! Once Rex gets burn it's a matter of time for it.
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I actually have the opposite problem. I get defeated very easily by my players.
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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zalmute wrote: I actually have the opposite problem. I get defeated very easily by my players. I did too until I found out about 1) running (you can sacrifice your actions and move double your usual), and 2) we were playing wrong; heroes only get hearts and potions on successful attacks, they were adding hearts/potions on ALL attacks.
And trade who gets to be Consul around; it's boring being one thing every time!
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Zachary Wolf
United States Idaho Falls Idaho
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At First, I feared that the Consul would never have a chance! But then one of the guy's at the local game store played the Consul. He is one of the better miniature warfare gamers (hordes and war-machine) at the store, and he's good at strategy just in general.
When he played, I watched how he used the Auras like Shield wall, Stealth and Dragon Rage VERY effectively against the Players. he one of the heroes down pretty quickly, - even before the Boss Popped, and that pretty much Demoralized the Party which decided to 'call it' in favor of the Consul shortly after.
So, the next time I played as Consul, I followed his Example, moving Kobolds that could cast Shield Wall up, and surrounding them with other mobs. Then getting a Dragon priest into the mix and casting Dragon Rage, and Stealth which really helps to negate the Ranged player's effectiveness.
The game went WAY late (we started at 11pm and finished at 4am,) it was fun - and the Consul (played by yours truly,) got the win.
There were still 3 Spawn points up with the Boss Spawned, that extra Activation was the Heroe's undoing.
Bottom line, by properly utilizing the special effects of your armies, I really think that the Consul is going to be Quite Difficult - previously, in the first 3 games that I ran, I was quickly destroyed by the Heroes.
I'm exited, as with experience, I really think this game will be fairly Balanced.
Balanced = Awesomeness.
Thanks.
zWolf
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Bio Automaton
United States
Oregon
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I appreciate the feedback, guys. We definitely didn't realize that any hero could use rolled hearts and potions, we'll make sure to take that into account next time.
I think maybe we're rolling really terribly. I'll post feedback after we next get a chance to play.
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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One thing I realized last night, after rolling over my heroes easily, is that the heroes should start in a tile that as as many other tiles as possible connected to it - they chose to start in a corner tile and I was able to bottle them up in there easily and bogged them down so that by the time Starfire arrived, three spawn points were left.
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Kevin Keefe
United States Kettering Ohio
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zwolf wrote: Hmm, yes more details on how you are running a normal combat might help... I have found just the opposite to be true... I have run 3 Games, and I feel great fear that the Consul may not be able to ever win.
Having the same problem over here, particularly when the heroes get the green armor buff treasure. Just can't do enough damage to get through that ridiculous armor.
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Kevin Keefe
United States Kettering Ohio
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Bioautomaton wrote: I think maybe we're rolling really terribly. I'll post feedback after we next get a chance to play.
I know that as Consul I am definitely doing this as well.
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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The trick with the Consul is to mob mob mob, and make sure your dragon priest has his dragon rage buff up - those extra blue dice add up, a Knucklehead can roll 7 blues maxed out. Also, when you get to draw your Loot cards and pick one of them, go for damage dice; I was of the opinion that more armor was better, but frankly you WANT the kobolds to die in droves and summon the Boss faster. Not TOO much dying, that's why the Ironscales are your bread and butter, but letting them thin your pack only makes you more powerful - sure, powers them up too, but nothing's perfect eh?
And nothing says you HAVE to go for the up-armored ones; I prefer picking on the softer, squishier heroes first...
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Bio Automaton
United States
Oregon
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So, a quick report on the last game.
First off: The players finally won! Yay!
We had a Ranger, a Rogue, myself as the Paladin, and the Druid (who spent most his time as the Angry Bear).
Initial impressions from this session lead me to believe that yes, the Paladin is absolutely key. I can't even imagine playing without his healing ability supporting folks. Secondly, if the Consul is playing well, he still has a lot of weight in his favor. We didn't know it but the person playing Consul this time didn't realize his final activation (unused mobs) could attack as well as move. That might have changed things.
The fact that any hero could use rolled hearts or potions was definitely key. That helped me keep people alive with the Paladin. In the end I was rolling five blue dice and a green for attacks, which was lovely. Green to confim, blues for the hearts, everybody (that was still alive) was happy.
Still, we lost two people with the arrival of the boss. The meter fills up incredibly fast and we had only managed to take down two of the four spawners. The Druid ended up hugging the boss on a nice roll, though, so we let Starfire hang out in a corner and gathered up the remaining treasure before renewing our assault.
One thing that really hurt is that on both runs so far, the Consul pulled the +red to attack loot to enhance their minions. That proves to be very painful over time since loot tends to be more in favor of offensive items than defensive items.
Some things we're wondering, though:
Paladin - When rolling hearts, does he still get to apply two units of healing to other characters too?
Rogue - Greed ability, just to make sure - does the Rogue HAVE to equip the item they pick from the two when using it? I read a clarification elsewhere that looked like they could simply keep/pass along the item if desired.
General - If trashing an item, can any character take the potion gained, just like when rolling them on the dice? Or does it have to be the character who gains the loot? We played that any character could take it, which seemed to be logical if any character could take potions gained via dice rolls.
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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Paladin can apply two units of healing to other models, and can (found nothing in the book to the contrary) even split them up should he desire giving one heart to two Heroes.
The Rogue can pass along the item; are you using a non-English version? 'Cause the Rogue's ability is called 'Luck' on my card; there's a Gem of Greed but that's a Treasure item and it just enables two slots of equipment instead of just one.
Yes, any character can take the potion from a trashed Loot or Treasure card.
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Bobby4th wrote: The players were slaughtered in the 16-bit games we played. I think it is a combination of not knowing the game and it could be their choice of heroes. I think I'll stick with 16-bit until we have an idea of which heroes work well together and how to play.
I'm finding that this is the case myself, but with playing with 3 heroes. They can go through the spawns and spawn points quickly but when Starfire arrives we have a hard time defeating it.
Although a mistake we're making is we're summoning only 4 skulls worth of baddies every round, instead of each spawn point. I know this makes it "easier" for heroes but harder as well: it lessens the amount of loot being generated, and lessens the chances of rolling for hearts and potions.
Going to have to correct that and see if the game goes faster/easier.
iamfanboy wrote: Yes, any character can take the potion from a trashed Loot or Treasure card.
I'm pretty sure you can only exchange a Treasure card (relic) for a potion; for loot, you can exchange it for a heart.
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Matt Barnes
United States Lexington Kentucky
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iamfanboy wrote: Paladin can apply two units of healing to other models, and can (found nothing in the book to the contrary) even split them up should he desire giving one heart to two Heroes. How does he do this exactly? I don't have the card in front of me, but I thought it was his potion that healed 3 hearts and cured all status ailments?
Either way, the heroes have been getting their butts kicked up and down the block in the games I have played. I always play the Consul and consider myself a very experienced miniature gamer, and gamer in general, it still seems stupidly easy for the Consul to win.
I have only tried the 8-bit versions of the game, with 2 heroes, so that might be one problem.But it usually comes down to one mistake, and one of the heroes just gets destroyed one round, and there isn't much you can do at that point. You get delayed one turn, and the Consul has the board filled with minions, and you are finished.
The first game, we forgot to give a potion to each Hero in the beginning, which probably would have made a big difference at the start. I also don't know if we are really even playing the 8-bit version correctly. Since Rex is the "Dungeon boss" (but is called a "Mini Boss" in the rules), does the game end when he dies? Can the Consul no longer spawn minions after he spawns like you would on the Dragon?
Either way, I wouldn't spawn anything after the mini-boss would spawn and would still destroy. The heroes tried kiting the boss after they put fire ailment on him, but that only lasted a couple rounds until they ran out of space to run, then it was over.
Maybe the 2 player game just isn't that balanced? I don't see how we are doing anything wrong with the rules, they are pretty straight forward as far as combat and what not.
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Bio Automaton
United States
Oregon
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My mistake - yes, I meant Luck, not Greed
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Aaron Bergman
United States
California
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Matt - the Paladin also has Healer, which doubles all the Hearts gained that he rolls on blue or green dice. Damned invaluable when you're in a pinch, just give him lots of blue dice equipment and watch him heal your party in one of his activations... hopefully.
And I'm starting to think that 8-bit isn't balanced properly at all; the game is better at 16-bit where you have three heroes (and the loss of one doesn't mean you're totally hosed), but for now I prefer Super over all the others. More heroes means more fun.
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Matt Barnes
United States Lexington Kentucky
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iamfanboy wrote: Matt - the Paladin also has Healer, which doubles all the Hearts gained that he rolls on blue or green dice. Damned invaluable when you're in a pinch, just give him lots of blue dice equipment and watch him heal your party in one of his activations... hopefully.
And I'm starting to think that 8-bit isn't balanced properly at all; the game is better at 16-bit where you have three heroes (and the loss of one doesn't mean you're totally hosed), but for now I prefer Super over all the others. More heroes means more fun. Ah yes, I forgot about that. The Paladin in the game I played got destroyed in one round, so he didn't get a chance to even roll any hearts.
But yea, I could see how that would be really useful. I really need to try the 16-bit or SUPER! games, as I do agree, the 8-bit seems unbalanced and the rules are pretty unclear as well.
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Yuuichi Aizawa
United States
California
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iamfanboy wrote: Clarifications I've noticed:
The Consul gets 4 skulls to spawn from EACH spawn point, unless he has extra Skulls from racking up the kill meter. This means he can't spawn, say, two Ironscales and a Priest from one point, making it a bit slower at first.
Some basic tips:
ALWAYS bring the healing heroes, the ones that heal with potions - either the Ember Mage or the Paladin, quite possibly both. Save the potions for desperate moments (just before a hero gets killed), but you need those potions. The Paladin is probably better because his Healer and the amount of blue dice he rolls gives him an edge healing other heroes, but the Ember Mage also has her AOE Flame Wave - see below. Don't forget that the Paladin can split the hearts he gets from his Healer between multiple heroes.
ALWAYS bring AOE heroes - heroes that can affect more than one square with their attack. I was tearing up an 8-bit dungeon with the Druid and the Ranger until I (foolishly, in retrospect) transformed into Angry Bear and lost the Druid's AOE attack. The Fighter is probably one of the better ones because he can swing his AOE 3 times and the Dangerous part of Cleave hardly matters. The Ranger is good too because she can remove Burn with her ability and Sparkle Burst is a decent AOE. I'd count the Barbarian's ability as an AOE because she can attack 6 times with it!
Don't be afraid to turn Loot into potions when the Loot is of marginal benefit (only two heroes benefit from Dex, for example, and there's a lot of Dex Loot!)
Save the Rogue and the Hexcast Sorceress for Super games, where the Rogue's Luck can swing a great Treasure for you, and the Sorceress can put a hurt on Rex and the Dragon from a distance with Weak and Fragile - not that either are BAD in lower games, mind you; I've seen a Rogue pick up a Treasure chest turn 1 in an 8-bit game and have it be that Backlash-granting shield, talk about an early-game changer.
If you have Candy & Cola, they're incredible in Super games, fueling the whole party with potions.
Playing as the Consul most often, I can tell you that the Paladin is the most annoying character, followed closely by the Hearthsworn Fighter. Once that pally gets some extra blues to play with he can heal a LOT, and the Dwarf can cut down an entire horde by himself with Cleave, as well as tanking unexpectedly with his potion - plus the Dwarf is the only hero with 6 hearts on his card. It doesn't hurt that both of them are the tougher characters.
Oh dear god I love you right now lol! Here I am thinking of all kinds of different strategy to survive the Hero onslaught of my measly 4 skulls a round and you come out and make me re-read that phrase in the rule book! My hero's are in trouble now because of you though they might
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Nunya Business
United States
Pennsylvania
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It was exactly the opposite when I played. The GM, or whoever he is supposed to be, was the one that got slaughtered.
Maybe the team you had was just a bad team?
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