Kyle Jones
United States
Delaware
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After you finish them win or lose every time their card comes up a catapult comes. Those are very hard to get rid of. The benefits of finishing them are not that great, they are hard to finish in the first place. It seems like the best thing to do is just keep them in a non losing state so you do not get bombarded with catapults. This gives you more room to work with in the catapults and more flexibility in the progression of evil.
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Chris Casinghino
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
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I'm not an expert, but my guess is that you're half right. Finishing them very early could result in lots of catapults. What I've seen happen instead is that these are held at a maintenance level for most of the game (as you suggest) and then finished off with a big push when the end is drawing near to put some more white swords on the board.
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ackmondual
United States
Virginia
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oceankyle wrote: After you finish them win or lose every time their card comes up a catapult comes. Those are very hard to get rid of. The benefits of finishing them are not that great, they are hard to finish in the first place. It seems like the best thing to do is just keep them in a non losing state so you do not get bombarded with catapults. This gives you more room to work with in the catapults and more flexibility in the progression of evil. ccasin wrote: I'm not an expert, but my guess is that you're half right. Finishing them very early could result in lots of catapults. What I've seen happen instead is that these are held at a maintenance level for most of the game (as you suggest) and then finished off with a big push when the end is drawing near to put some more white swords on the board.
+1 here. If it's down to the wire, you either deliberately let it fail knowing that adding 3 black swords won't cause you to auto-lose (7 black swords is the condition IIRC), AND it'll trigger end game by getting to or beyond 12 swords, AND it'll still put you ahead in white swords (although it's only possible to have this and "condition A" if you're playing with Merlin's Company and played that card that lets the knight win on ties). OR, you win Holy Grail/Excaliber knowing you need those 3 or 2 white swords FTW.
Speaking of which, if you're playing with MC, while Quest cards for those quests that got completed now add catapults, the exp rules state they do NOT get reshuffled back into the black card deck, although that being easier is likely balanced out by the fact the special black cards come out with more frequency now.
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Craig Tenhoff
United States
Simi Valley
California
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Remember, besides the cards, swords, and life points, the Grail counts as 4 life. 4 life = 4 less black cards if you sacrifice life.
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Kyle Jones
United States
Delaware
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4 life is a lot but it takes awhile to complete and the attention of the entire group. During that time the group could no question beat the picts quest twice or more to achieve the benefits, and that wouldn't force a player to spend the rest of the game fighting catapults. Catapults just seem so brutal to me relative to going over there everytime someone builds up some grail cards and spending some time keeping it at bay. Plus all the grail cards it takes could be sacrificed for life.
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I think if you do finish one of these, it should be the Grail. As mentioned by others in this thread, the Grail has huge benefits. 4 life plus 3 white swords. If you have 4 white swords, it's the perfect move to push the traitor to do something stupid to give himself away.
Excalibur is really only an optimal weapon in the hands of Sir Kay, and it's once-per-game ability is quite rare (as much as I say this, though, each time we've had Excalibur, there has been a situation that requires us to stop a standard black from coming into play, which only the sacrifice of Excalibur can do (but if this is to stop a Despair or Excalibur card from coming, then that is pretty self-fulfilling, huh?)).
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William Roop
United States
Mendon
Michigan
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Personally, I have a strategy for getting Excaliber from the start of the game with little loss. Since it is a group quest, decide who you want to fight catapults with. Make sure you"do the math" to make that person finish the quest.
PoE Progression of Evil
HA Heroic Action
EA Extra Action
Starting move (and every progression of evil till Excaliber is yours)
PoE - place 1 catapult
HA - move to Excaliber
EA - place 1 white card.
NEXT PLAYER
repeat till Excaliber is yours. Split the loot, giving good number cards to the catapult warrior. Loss of life from turn 1 is offset by healing when quest is done. Auto-return to table.
From this point forward, the catapult warrior stays at the table and either draws cards or fights catapults as needed. +1 vs catapults gives the option to "gamble" with less than 9 vs catapults. (this will work BEST if there are 5 or more players).
This strategy can be used against ANY of the group quests, but Excaliber is the easiest. You could technically use it to gain the Grail to begin, but the chances of drawing enough cups to fill the quest is MUCH lower than drawing ANY white card to complete Excaliber. You could use this strategy to take out a pict/saxon invasion before any invaders are place, but again, you have to draw the right combo of number cards to complete it.
The biggest flaw in this strategy is that you will play the rest of the game recovering from 50% catapult load. But you will have to spend time drawing cards at the table to save up for quests, so having a couple extra knights stick around to fight invaders if they draw only numbers can help get this under control.
JUST ADDED:
Actually, if you are INSISTANT on starting the game with no catapults in play, you can spend a turn using Merlins to wipe them out. I prefer to hold them till I need them, but we HAVE finished games (or had them finish us) while still holding Merlin cards unused!
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Travis Hall
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
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Don't do as Wlliam suggests. All you wind up doing by employing that approach is deferring the cost of dealing with an Excalibur card until later, when you need deal with the siege engines that result. Furthermore, the cost of removing a siege engine is often higher than the cost of just tossing an extra card into the lake to counter the draw of an Excalibur card; a form of interest on the loan granted by placing siege engines.
Not only is the ultimate cost lower if you draw black cards instead of placing siege engines early, you also get to see where the black cards are falling, which helps you shape your play to take advantage of opportunities that will be presented.
Yes, William, you're very clever to have come up with a script for getting you something you want in the early game. However, that script takes away the ability of the players to apply strategy, and without that strategy the game only becomes harder to win.
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