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Subject: Why so many debt tokens? should we be using of them? rss

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Todd
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Warren
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We have only played a few games so far with 3-4 players and used an average of 2 $2 debt tokens total all players added up, the game comes with a lot of tokens, both $2 and $5 so there must be a reason for so many, I don't see how it could be a good idea to go in debt, there aren't enough banks to go around, so what are we missing, should all players be using them? this would explain why there are so many.
 
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Tucker Taylor
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Look at it this way: it costs $5 at the end of the game to pay off a debt. $5 is the value of a gold piece, and gold is worth two points at the end of the game.

So... if taking out a debt gets you more than two points, you've come out ahead.

(Don't take this to extremes: you do still need to be able to pay back the debt at the end of the game. But it's a start.)
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Alex Rockwell
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About 5-8 debt tokens per player is pretty normal for skilled players. The first edition didnt have enough debt tokens, thats why we added 5 debt chips in the second.

If in your group no one is ever taking debt, you can probably easily beat them by never losing an auction, and going to 5-8 debt. You can generally pay off a few debt in the final income round.
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Steve Duff
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This is definitely a game where you want to be taking some debt.
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G K
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We collect a fair bit of debt starting from the beginning until into the town phase, then it's all about trying to pay them all off in the endgame. That's the beauty of the auction in this game, driving up the prices so that your opponents suffer for their purchases. If no one is taking debt, then everyone is being too nice!
 
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Todd
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Warren
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Alexfrog wrote:
About 5-8 debt tokens per player is pretty normal for skilled players. The first edition didnt have enough debt tokens, thats why we added 5 debt chips in the second.

If in your group no one is ever taking debt, you can probably easily beat them by never losing an auction, and going to 5-8 debt. You can generally pay off a few debt in the final income round.


so how do pay back 5-8 debt tokens? it seems too hard to do, but we are learning so I would like to understand how to play the game right.
 
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G K
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bmwrider wrote:
so how do pay back 5-8 debt tokens? it seems too hard to do, but we are learning so I would like to understand how to play the game right.

If you can make a couple gold (or equivalent) in each of the last turn and final income that would be 4 debt tokens paid off. And it's not bad to have one token left at the end of the game of course as paying it off doesn't net you any more vp. That would account for 5 right there.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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bmwrider wrote:

so how do pay back 5-8 debt tokens? it seems too hard to do, but we are learning so I would like to understand how to play the game right.



Are you playing where after round 10 you collect income one last time? Thats important.

Using that income, and more stuff from passing in round 9 or 10 if you have a lot of debt, you "should" have a one or two big resources (gold/copper/livestock), and probably a few smaller resources, and maybe a few silver.


Using your remaining trade chips, including ones from the final income phase, you sell high value goods like Steel, Livestock and Copper.

You take all your gold, and pay off debt with it (either you make gold, or the gold you got from selling your livestock or copper just now). Using various silver you have from selling steel, food, or just from income, you pay off a bit more. Youre now down to 2 debt, which is perfectly fine. If you were the 5 debt guy, you only needed to use your final income to get down to 2 debt. If youre the 8 debt guy, you probably passed in round 10 as well. (Additionally, one other player can go to 8-10 debt but get the Bank to pay some of them off).


The goal is not to pay down to 0 debt, but to pay down to 2 (or maybe 1). One debt is -1 and two is -3. Thats not a big deal (and once youre down to 2, it is breakeven to pay a gold to pay one off).



I consider a 'typical' early bid to be about 6. If your group is bidding way less than that, you should not be passing much at all.
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Sheldon Morris
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Alexfrog wrote:
Are you playing where after round 10 you collect income one last time? Thats important.

Ah crumb. We played last night and forgot about that. I hope it wouldn't have changed the outcome though because I won by 1 point.
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