Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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truekid wrote: I encourage you to try it both ways- my experience has shown a clear time difference with no benefits to the slow method.
I have no doubt it's faster. But I just can't see how you can claim there are no benefits in the rules as written.
This is an extremely common situation in the game:
I need 3 resources to build the building I need this turn, 1 stone, 1 gold, and 1 wood. The dice are rolled. Aha, I can claim the 11 spot for stone+wood or stone+gold. And with my remaining die, I can claim either the 2 or 3 spot, for the missing 3rd resource. My turn cannot be blocked.
Your method: I place on the 11. I'm now forced to choose immediately, I choose stone/gold. Now, instead of either spot 2 or 3, I'm now locked into needing spot 3. If my opponent should take that one spot, I can no longer build that building as planned.
This sort of thing happens all the time in Kingsburg. You place your first spot thinking one thing will happen, then your opponents play somewhere you didn't expect, forcing you to change plans and work out a new way of getting what you want, or switching plans entirely.
Another problem with your method: you get resources ahead of when they are legally able to be used. On my first placement, I choose spot 7, and gain a +2 token. I can now use this +2 token to place my remaining dice, on the same turn it was acquired. This should not be able to happen.
You're changing the game. You're eliminating knowledge needed to make better moves.
You want to call it a variant, fine. Just don't tell me it's the same game.
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Andy Van Zandt
United States
West Coxsackie
New York
check out "Grave Business"!
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For those RARE (and they are rare. even your described situation has so many unspoken caveats as to be a less-than-once-per-game occurrence. you have to already have a market. you need very specific resources and you must not already possess any of them. your opponents need to be threatening one option, but not both, and they also need to be threatening the 11 space. etc, etc) situations where you've got a relevant decision, you just acknowledge that you'll make your choice after your next placement. as long as everyone knows how the resolution actually occurs, there are no problems. there is no using a +2 token you just picked up, because everyone knows that's not how it works.
I am not saying change the end result of the game (in fact, i've repeatedly tried to make it clear that if you're doing that, you're doing it wrong. apparently I haven't been clear enough, even though the sentence I suggested above has worked flawlessly with every group I've used it with), I'm just saying speed it up where possible- and the "where possible" in this situation works for 98% of all placements in the game, making it worth the 1 extra sentence you say during rules explanation.
with NO change to the end game result.
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tlalocbyu wrote:
When assigning dice, why wait until after all dice are assigned before claiming resources? Wouldn't it speed things up to assign the dice and claim resources at the same time? Are there special abilities that kick-in after dice are assigned but before resources are claimed?
There is also #10. If you go and take a look at the invader card for these year, it might influence if you are going to take #5 for another army or use that last 5 with a +2 to get #7.
That makes a difference.
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Galen Ciscell
United States
Fort Collins
Colorado
Check out my new cooperative board game - Atlantis Rising!
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I'd like to propose an alternative method to the OP, whose intent seems to be speeding up play: Players do not take their goods when they place their dice, but they do take them simultaneously (although you do need to take goods from your own dice in advisor order for situations like #6) after all dice have been placed. I find this speeds up play significantly (yes, I have tried it both ways) without really hurting the strategy of the game.
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Jason Weed
United States
Memphis
Tennessee
how sweet the sound...
Fear The Hat !!!
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote: truekid wrote: I encourage you to try it both ways- my experience has shown a clear time difference with no benefits to the slow method. I have no doubt it's faster. But I just can't see how you can claim there are no benefits in the rules as written. This is an extremely common situation in the game: I need 3 resources to build the building I need this turn, 1 stone, 1 gold, and 1 wood. The dice are rolled. Aha, I can claim the 11 spot for stone+wood or stone+gold. And with my remaining die, I can claim either the 2 or 3 spot, for the missing 3rd resource. My turn cannot be blocked. Your method: I place on the 11. I'm now forced to choose immediately, I choose stone/gold. Now, instead of either spot 2 or 3, I'm now locked into needing spot 3. If my opponent should take that one spot, I can no longer build that building as planned. This sort of thing happens all the time in Kingsburg. You place your first spot thinking one thing will happen, then your opponents play somewhere you didn't expect, forcing you to change plans and work out a new way of getting what you want, or switching plans entirely. Another problem with your method: you get resources ahead of when they are legally able to be used. On my first placement, I choose spot 7, and gain a +2 token. I can now use this +2 token to place my remaining dice, on the same turn it was acquired. This should not be able to happen. You're changing the game. You're eliminating knowledge needed to make better moves. You want to call it a variant, fine. Just don't tell me it's the same game.
I mostly agree with this assessment. One other factor would be taking a resource from a spot in the 7+ range, then trading it in the 6 spot, when you may not have had one otherwise.
Turn order building is also extremely important for getting and/or manipulating the kings favor, king's envoy, and the +1 vp for most buildings (not as important for the last). Also, it's not just turn order building, but buying soldiers and turning in +2 chits and resources for vp using the town hall. Order is one of the most important aspects of the game. Granted newer players probably won't understand manipulating these spots, but for experienced players, they are extremely important.
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rock lobster
United States
Kentucky
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Why bend the rules to speed up an already "quick / lite" game?
How long are your games of Kingsburg taking anyway? Sheesh.
PEBTAC, IMO.
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Galen Ciscell
United States
Fort Collins
Colorado
Check out my new cooperative board game - Atlantis Rising!
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Here's another suggestion to speed up play: Play 2-player
 Our games usually take 15-20 minutes.
Galen
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Christian Busch
Broomfield
Colorado
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rainofwalrus wrote:
Why bend the rules to speed up an already "quick / lite" game?
How long are your games of Kingsburg taking anyway? Sheesh.
PEBTAC, IMO.
My normal 3-4 player game (with most of the TFaR expansion material) takes about 2 - 2.5 hours. The game may feel light, but it can take awhile for my group to go through it. AP may be a big contributor but we also take our time when playing games- it is a social experience for us, not a timed tournament so we're fine with taking our time.
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ackmondual
United States
Virginia
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space monkey mafia wrote: rainofwalrus wrote:
Why bend the rules to speed up an already "quick / lite" game?
How long are your games of Kingsburg taking anyway? Sheesh.
PEBTAC, IMO.
My normal 3-4 player game (with most of the TFaR expansion material) takes about 2 - 2.5 hours. The game may feel light, but it can take awhile for my group to go through it. AP may be a big contributor but we also take our time when playing games- it is a social experience for us, not a timed tournament so we're fine with taking our time.
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United Kingdom
Hertfordshire
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It seems like people in Truekid's group choose spaces first and then figure out what they want to build when they're picking up the resources. In my experience players figure out what they want to build, calculate which resources they need and then choose the space, with the actual picking up of resources and selecting the options taking mere seconds. All the time spent in my groups is in the production's 'where should I place my dice' period.
Do players in other people's groups frequently select advisors with no goal of what they need them for?
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Andy Van Zandt
United States
West Coxsackie
New York
check out "Grave Business"!
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Poddster wrote: It seems like people in Truekid's group choose spaces first and then figure out what they want to build when they're picking up the resources. That's... not my experience at all. Everyone I know, except perhaps first-time players, aims at particular buildings and grabs resources based on that. This actually INCREASES the likelihood that you know which resource you're choosing as soon as you place on a this-or-that adviser...
it's actually pretty painful how apparently few people realize the narrowness of the choice space with most dice placements. but I've already covered the why-and-wherefore of that, and people aren't reading, so... *shrugs*
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