Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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Negative reviews are always a subjective thing. But all reviews are just personal opinions. Praising reviews usually attract alot more hails and appreciation, but it is in fact the critical ones that tell the more interesting stories. After all, without criticism, things will stay the same. I'd rather want things to improve, hence some critical points.
I really think the base game of CITOW is a brilliant design. Its one of the best games I ever played and one of the best designs in recent years. I really appreciate it. As I appreciate the effort FFG put into doing an expansion. That as a preliminary.
But for me the expansion fell completely flat. It actually makes the game worse. And here is why.
1) Modularity
You can not mix old cards and new cards. In practice, you cannot even mix the gods as you wish. You may do in theory, but if you throw a random selection of gods on stage, you'll get quite random results. For instance it looks like a pretty bad idea to leave out one of the main corruption droppers (Nurgle/Tzeentch/Slaanesh). Because this will slow down ruinations while Khorne can thrive on kills. While it is certainly not impossible to stop Khorne on that, his chances are much improved. So, the Rat is pretty much just a 5th player, unless you are up for some experiments.
2) Complexity
The game is more complex in terms of having to know about turn structure and what your opponents are capable of doing. You did have a certain learning curve in the base game as well but then some things matter alot more now. I am certainly in for deep games, but this expansion adds a layer of complexity which doesnt really make the game any better. To put a name on it, it is not an elegant design. The base game did have some awkward spots like how you could score the taking part in ruination points, which has meanwhile been simplified by the FAQ, much to my groups delight. Accessibility is worse because when you teach the base game to new players you may skip a few details in the base game which are now important with the expansion, like collecting DACs in different phases of the game. It happened to me several times that I taught the base game to new players and they won the game right away, especially with Khorne and Nurgle. With the expansion it seems they are lost within special rules alot more likely.
3) Rules
For such a small box expansion, adding a new player and replacing some cards of a well working game, this was one of the worst set of rules I have ever seen published. Lets put it straight, they messed this up bigtime. There was no proof read and no edit on the cards, they didnt even catch spelling errors like Transmorgrify. This clearly shows what an effort was put into the whole thing. It took months to rectify the most obvious errors by an FAQ and it is still not everything set aright. The way some cards are worded, things not spelled out or ambiguous information encourages many rule discussions among players. This is especially true if you start mixing players coming from different groups and different interpretations of the rules. But then you dont want to lawyer rules, you want to play a game.
4) Chaos Cards
The base game did have a few cards which were considered a little too occasionally useful or too costly for their effects. Some might even have been regarded too cheap for what they do. The new cards do have a couple of things going for them. A few are more elegant versions of their predecessors, there is some cool new stuff that creates nice interactions but there are also some flawed cards again. Choking Stench is simply too expensive for what it does. I have never really seen somebody use Transmorgrify while Havoc is way too strong. Some things appear as weird decisions, as Nurgle is supposed to play for the dial now, his only card to give him additional ticks to make up for having the longest dial, is only once in the whole deck. And no option to get through to it, just 2 cards each turns for half of your deck in the whole game. You cannot base your strategy on that, only when you hold the card very early, which is unlikely. Complexity and rules fuss come back to mind when thinking of some of the cards. Chaos cards of the expansion and of the base game, its not give or take much in the end. When it comes to that, I prefer the simpler and more straightforward option.
5) Upgrades
My main and only gripe with the base game were the upgrades. They became too scripted picks too early. So my real anticipation for improvement was going with the upgrades. I was hoping for a more balanced selection so that its an actual decision what to take for every game. At first glance, options seemed alot better. At second glance the effect fades abit again, while remaining slightly better in terms of making a real decision what to take. Maybe after 50 games, picks get as scripted as before. There are still some must takes and still some which are clearly inferior or useless. Nurgle has gone from having one strong upgrade to having 5 mediocre ones. This is all wrong because his best option is to play for VP (because his dial is too long) and so he is likely to just get a single upgrade or maybe two if you mix your effort (which you should rather avoid). So what Nurgle needs is 5 strong upgrades. Because you just get to pick one anyways. Slaanesh has the most balanced selection now. The Rat is classic as to have some that look good in theory but are bad in practice. Tzeentchs Mystical Disregard is so strong, it is a must take. There are also claims that the Khorne Bloodletter upgrade is too strong. I am not fully supporting that since there are other very efficient ways to steal a game. But I once took it and won a game in turn 3. Which is otherwise unheard of. Upgrades are not an epic fail but it is close to. Especially disappointing since this was the only point I was really hoping for an improvement.
6) Events
I like the idea of having more drastic events to make the Old World more powerful to deal with for seasoned players. Strong events however also make for wilder swings a game can take. There are also quite some cards that affect one god more than another. Last but not least there are just plain badly designed cards. Like Vermin Outbreak. It cripples the game for everyone the same. But then if you already have a strong position on the board, you are less affected. If you are hit in a weak phase when you lost alot of figures, it makes your comeback alot harder. Whats particularly bad design is that this card is not related to the event tokens. So it stays around until pushed off by the track (all token related events may disappear earlier). So as there are also alot of cards that dont add to the track but just have an immediate effect, Vermin Outbreak is sure to stay around pretty much forever, if it comes up. No fun, since it severly cripples the game. I dont like the idea of just using the new events. There are too few cards for that so it'll get old too quickly.
7) Playtime
The 5th player and the more complex structure and rule nitpicks also add some playtime. If you werent particularly looking to add another player, you can play the base game in less time. Also PBEM takes longer while it is not really better to just have one more fellow around. More players means more chaos means a busier board and more time to consider your moves and more downtime until you are up again.
8) Versatility
In the base game, Nurgle was without a doubt all points. Tzeentch and Slaanesh did have an option on the dial but usually they were more successful when focussing on points. Khorne was dial with also a path to VP if you wanted to try it. They seemed to have made it a goal to change some things here. For Tzeentch and Slaanesh it more or less stays the same, also the Rat chimes in there. Khorne can effectively win both ways now which makes him a power house. Nurgle was taken away his extraordinary VP abilities in favor of better options for the dial. But then his dial is simply too long for that and now he is way less competetive to win by points. All in all a very unnecessary change. Its an assymetrical game of chaos, I didnt need each god to be able to win both ways at all. Since it doesnt even work in practice it is a disimprovement.
9) Balance
Several threads and also my own collected data of more than 60 games with the base game indicated that balance was actually quite good. As discussed in earlier points, balance has been put to the worse. Nurgle got nerfed, Tzeentch can win any game almost single handedly by Havoc and Mystical Disregard. Khorne can dominate how a game goes either way while the Rat and Slaanesh may only chime in occasional wins. That is my experience and also that of others. I had to play the base game 14 times to see each god win TWICE. I played the expansion 18 times now and no Nurgle win at all. Different players in different groups and different approaches always resulted in similar sad results.
10) Fun
If a game isnt balanced well, has too many nit picks in the rules and isnt overall offering anything really new it is not much fun. In fact, playing this expansion was quite dull at times. Its so boring I am actually going back to play the base game. I was ready to call me done with this game after 80 matches all in all. But I recently played the base game again, twice and it was much fun. Glad to see I am still enjoying the game and it is really the expansion that killed the fun and not my overplaying it.
I rate the base game very highly, still after ALOT of plays, I am clearly beyond the early enthusiasm. I rate this expansion a 4 currently and I am in doubt that it will change for the better. I decided I rather play the base game again and pack the expansion away. If an expansion does that to you, it is not a good one.
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Jason Rupp
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
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I completely agree. The balance is what kills it for me personally.
Also, in the original game, I felt that gods had a more unique feel to them. In the expansion, they tried to make them more similar.
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Nice analysis by one of our most active CitOW players.
I've played with the expansion only a handful of times (all with 5), and I love it. I find it really exciting, and I love the challenge of playing the rat. Perhaps after dozens more plays I may think differently, but I doubt I'll ever reach that point. The biggest issue with the expansion for me is that the rat player is a bit too difficult for new players (particularly those who don't have much experience with complex games generally). But the expansion definitely adds more than it takes away IMO.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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I never played Chaos.
But I like reading reviews.
And I like how this one deconstructed exactly what you didn't like, so players can decide for themselves.
Well articulated.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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You just saved me 20 euros: when such an obvious fan of the base game is so disappointed by the expansion, there's really something wrong with the latter.
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Be aware though that this expansion received a lot of praising. I haven't played it so I find this post very interesting, but I would wait to know what the expansion lovers have to say before taking the decision not to buy it.
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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Well, I really do love the concept of this game. Thats why I tried harder and longer to love the expansion as well as I would usually bother.
At some point though you just have to admit to yourself that it is better to pull the plug.
It is still just my personal opinion and I hope there are some out there who can enjoy this. I cannot. And I know this sentiment is shared by other seasoned CITOW players. When you look at the recorded plays, there is noone who played the base game more often than I did. And there is only one player who played the expansion more often than me. Its Andrew and we have been playing some games together. He likes the expansion better actually but he also said he'll quit after our current PBEM.
I have had several veteran players dropping out of email games before me, after we switched to the expansion. I say it is not good. But I also say you should try out for yourself if you dare and make up your own mind.
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Jeff Jackson
United States
Mather
California
OK, one time Randy Beaman had to take baths with his brother. So one time his little brother took a potty in the bathtub .....and now Randy Beaman gets to take showers alone. 'K, bye.
One time, OK, see, one time Randy Beaman's little brother ate Pop Rocks and drank a soda at the same time and his head exploded! 'K, bye.
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Very well thought out responses to why it failed for you. Great review!
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Rich Chamberlain
United Kingdom
Nottingham
Nottinghamshire
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I've played with the Expansions 2 or 3 times (I forget). Each time I've come away disappointed about how the game played out.
This is not the Chaos I know and love. I already decided after the last game (Dial AND Points win for Khorne - a very stupid result!) to never play with the expansion UNLESS if its just to add a fifth player. But even then maybe not.
R.
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Joseph Cochran
United States
Costa Mesa
California
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I don't record my plays here, but I'm at about the same number of plays on the base game as Umbratus, and while there are some points I'd quibble with in the review, I have to agree with the larger point.
In the case of my play group, it's not that there are things we don't like about the expansion, it's just that where once that game dominated (one of our game nights even saw two simultaneous games going because so many of us wanted to play), the expansion is not demanding the same attention.
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Marco Poutré
Canada
St-Jean-sur-Richelieu
Quebec
Yes... I still like 'em 28 years later...
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Umbratus wrote:
I really think the base game of CITOW is a brilliant design. Its one of the best games I ever played and one of the best designs in recent years. I really appreciate it. As I appreciate the effort FFG put into doing an expansion. That as a preliminary.
That's what makes your opinion so valuable, you are well-known among CitOW fans so I was very glad you took the time to write a review even though it must have been "painful" (Don't want to sound too melodramatic here) for you to witness the expansion you've been waiting for months to come out fall flat.
I played one game with the expansion and my initial impressions were pretty mixed as well. I had to refer to the rulebook many times and that was an odd feeling since the original game was so imprinted in my brain I thought I mastered it perfectly.
But suddenly, new Chaos card A vs new Chaos card B vs Horned Rat's ability vs new Upgrade C triggered a lot of questions from the players and it felt weird and tempo-killing to have to sift through the rules again.
It certainly didn't rekindle the flame for me.
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Andrew P
United States
San Francisco
California
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As a counterpoint, I like the expansion more than the base game: I think the decks are more interesting, and that there are fewer useless cards/upgrades/followers (but they still exist, as Joel mentions above - thank you FFG).
However the balance issue really stands out: you can play Tzeentch half asleep and perform decently, while Nurgle is ridiculously handicapped. This has cooled my enthusiasm considerably.
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I agree with Umbratus that CitOW is a fantastic game and the more area control games I encounter the more I appreciate CitOW's take on the genre-- its ordered, intense, but still strategically and tactically deep (And like BSG a great take on someone else's IP). Its so tight, in fact, it seemed as if there would be no way expand the game beyond a new card set.
Reluctantly I have to say Umbratus is correct, the new expansion has problems. 10 are listed but I think it relates to just two main issues: 1)A woefully underpowered Nurgle (Upgrades and Chaos Cards) and 2) over powered Upgrades for the other gods.
HOWEVER-- I really like this expansion because it demonstrated that a meaningful 5th player can be added with a new mechanic for dial advancement. I also think that the Chaos cards as a whole are more useful with few duds and allows each player to field all 3 different units in meaningful ways (In the base game if you weren't Khorn there was little reason for Warriors).
I hope FFG tries again maybe with just a card expansion for all 5 powers with a re-evaluation of each god's sphere of influence and how that should work in game.
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10/10 for a review that talks about what works, what doesm't and how the game feels without simply rehashing the rules.
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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Wow, I had never thought this would ring with such a resonance. I had expected like 5 thumbs and several comments that I should go to hell for talking bad of someones favorite game.
If so many people agree, there must be indeed more truth to it than any personal opinion can tell.
Thanks for all the praise and recommendation.
I hope that someone from FFG reads this and if they do a 2nd expansion they put more effort into it.
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For me, this expansion was a no brainer, but now I'm not that sure anymore... I have hard time to believe the balance is so messed up (Nurgle) as I guess it has been playtested by people knowing the base game very well. I hope I'll get to test it myself soon.
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Evil Bob
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
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 Go to hell for talking bad about my favorite game!
Just kidding! 
I just wanted to say that I bought this expansion a year ago because of the ability to play as the Rat. To me, the extra alternate decks for the other gods and Old World cards was more of a bonus, rather than a reason to buy the expansion.
I still haven't tried the game with the new expansion, but now I know to introduce it cautiously to my gaming group. We're still enchanted with the base game, having only a limited number of plays.
Thanks for your insightful and informative review.
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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bbhalla wrote: I just wanted to say that I bought this expansion a year ago because of the ability to play as the Rat.
Well, it was published only about half a year ago 
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Guillaume- the problem with Nurgle is that the Chaos cards look good in theory, but in practice they are costly AND require and additional trigger, so you might have to lay corruption or dominate in order to receive the effect.
With the added competition of the Rat on top of Khorne, Nurgle can have a difficult time pulling that off due to being out competed by the Rat in numbers or just killed off by Khorne. And when you do finally get your 1st upgrade card, most of the other players have or are on their way to receiving their second.
I think an inherent flaw in the base game is making Nurgle's first upgrade so far away. I think its fine that the dial is longer, but the relative position of the first upgrade should have been closer to the start.
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Evil Bob
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
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Umbratus wrote: bbhalla wrote: I just wanted to say that I bought this expansion a year ago because of the ability to play as the Rat. Well, it was published only about half a year ago
Oops, you're right. I bought it in early July. I guess it just feels like I've owned it for a year, as it sits there on my gaming shelf taunting me to play it.
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I like the expansion more than the base game and I disagree with you in more of your points Joel, but a nice review.
I do not see Nurgle underpowered, from when I keep statistics of all my games, Khorne and Nurgle are at 8, Rat at 10, T and S at 7, so its pretty much nicely distributed. Well, that is just different opinion based on different experience
About Havoc/Transmorgrify, it occured to me like it was a misprint with the magic symbol. Havoc would be quite weaker and Transmorgrify would see more use than once per year.
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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You really played 16+14+10 = 40 games, all 5 player with the expansion ?
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ICaneus- I am curious how Nurgle pulled out the wins, but more how the Rat is such a dominate force. I agree the Horned One has some nice tricks, but I can't be believe he outperforms the other gods.
Any hint as to the main strategies that work?
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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We played at least 5 games together PBEM, probably more. Certainly some more with the base game. But in none of that with the expansion did Nurgle win.
I think he is mixing all of his games together, base and expansion. Maybe even 3 player games, not sure about that.
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Ignoring the new decks...
How do you feel about the base game with the addition of the Horned Rat ruinous power?
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Posted Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:45 pm
