magic gecko
Australia
Melbin Oz
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fateswanderer wrote: Joel did mention the Bloodletter upgrade. Umbratus wrote: I once took it and won a game in turn 3
Fair. 
Does Umbratus "not encourage to give" fateswanderers' "opinion more credit than it deserves?
Is Fateswanderer "able to communicate in a civilized way."?
Does Fateswanderer have "precious little experience with the game"?
Is Umbratus "interested in what" Fateswanderer "has to say"?
Does fateswanderer "keep trolling these boards." too?
Fateswanderer, your "opinion I would rate alot higher" than Umbratus.
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Joe Stude
United States
Plymouth
Michigan
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if you didn't notice, Joel thumbed up Fate's post, meaning even if he disagrees with him he respected Fate's opinion, as do I. The reason you don't get the same respect is because you're condescending and inflammatory. Is it too much to ask for you to stop throwing spitballs every time you state your opinion?
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Matthew M Monin
United States
Branford
Connecticut
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
513ers Assemble!
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Responding to inflammatory posts only invites more inflammatory posts. The only thing to do is ignore them and move on.
Remember - if you see something you want to react negatively to, flag it and forget it.
Using the  icon serves two functions - first, if enough users flag a post then it will be collapsed from general view. Second, flagging posts helps bring them to the attention of the forum moderators.
Thanks!
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Eric Taylor
United States
Downers Grove
Illinois
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I fully admit that I'm relatively inexperienced with the expansion (6 plays total with it, 4 or 5 player games), but at first I fell for the "Nurgle can win by dial turns" argument, which has obviously turned out to be BS. Since then, I've come to see it differently - namely, I don't think Nurgle can possibly win by dial turns. His meter is far too long and it's just not even reasonably doable, no matter how many turns you can double down on dial turns. What you CAN do, however, is occasionally deny other players the double-advance turn by winning for DACs or tying. I've found this helps to put the brakes on others' attempts to win by dial so you have enough time to win by score. The upgrade cards should be selected to increase corruption output so you can ruin regions faster - you don't get Provender of Ruin anymore (
 ), so you'll need to do the dirty work yourself.
I will fully admit that I feel the Khorne Bloodletter upgrade is too strong. It allows Khorne to freely pursue the dial victory, and if he rolls well enough, he gets to win by points alternatively as well. It doesn't require a strategy decision at some point like the other powers' possible paths to victory often do. I'd be satisfied if it was simply "for each region you kill one or more enemy models in a battle where Bloodletters are present, you earn 2 victory points" rather than 2 points per model killed.
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I'm really torn. The game FELT more fun than the base game but yeah there are some doozy balance issues and badly worded cards (Verminous Horde being the worst offender).
It felt like they over-boosted the weakest god (Khorne) and over-weakened the strongest god (Nurgle). Nurgle usually won with VP unless the Khorne player was a total expert, Slaneesh managed to get lucky with an extra noble old world card and double dial first turn, or warpstone came up in the Norsica corridor and Tzeentch knew what he was doing.
There is no way the bloodletter upgrade is balanced. It is an uphill battle getting my group to play this game solely because of it (leaving out Khorne in a 4 player game is what most people go for). It's not a question of whether it needs to be nerfed or not but how to nerf it. Even scoring only 2 VP per region is borderline and we're now considering "max 2 VP per region, only on kills with actual bloodletter dice".
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Brad "What do you mean "Double Skulls" again?!" Redfield
United Kingdom
Under a DVD Collection, Scarborough
North Yorkshire
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Zejety wrote: I would still like to know how the Horned Rat (the God, not the set) plays against the base set gods.
I know Joel said he hasn't tried that yet. Has anybody else played that way?
I am a huge fan of the Skaven faction and would hate to have waited for this expansion for so long (waiting for the German edition...).
Hey man, in response to your questions I think the Horned Rat plays well with the original 4 Powers' cards, so long as it's a 5 player game (and I'll probably always take the Skaven when we do because I love them too!).
In 4/3 player games the lack of corruption tokens due to the Rat replacing one of the stadard Gods can stifle the other Gods' abilities.
Having now tried the expansion's Morrsleib cards and found everyone to be totally disappointed by them (reduced flavour/individuality, vague text, unbalanced win options & either under powered/over powered upgrades), we'll probably stick to playing the base game with the Horned Rat in on any 5 player games.
Means half the expansion I spent money on will sit idle but enjoyment is the main aim of our sessions, and being able to take the awesome base game to 5 is a plus at least. 
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Michael De Coster
Belgium
Brasschaat
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I would like to add a fifth player to the game, but I'm wary about using the Morrslieb set because of the stated Nurgle weaknesses, which this review has brought to light.
In our group, Nurgle has won the base game maybe once (when everyone was new to the game) and never again. The other gods seem perfectly capable of winning, but Nurgle is just so easy to shut down, even if he comes close. And with the new set he's become worse? I'm not saying base-game Nurgle is weak, but I don't like the sound of him becoming weaker.
So... I could buy the expansion and keep playing the base game sets, but then I wouldn't be using half of the expansion... Does anyone know whether it would be a good idea to leave Nurgle with the base set while the other gods use Morrslieb? Has anyone tried this? I know the rules say not to do it, but if the problem stems from Nurgle's new cards, this seems worth a try.
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Bryan Myers
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
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Nurgle is probably the only power you could try that with; Tzeentch and Slaanesh trade off the "Field of Ecstasy" card, so if you switch either of them you end up with too many or no ways to shut down battle. And Khorne in the expansion needs a viable VP based approach, since games seem to not last long enough for dial wins.
Which is to say, go ahead and try switching out Nurgle; it doesn't seem immediately problematic the way changing any others would be.
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Kweku Abraham
United States
Oakland
California
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Am I missing something? Why are multiple people saying magic gecko was being condescending and acting like his seemingly unpopular opinion (HR Nurgle being viable) has no merit? He pointed out that Nurgle has had success in some of his Horned Rat games, and even provided a link to an online game as an example. Surely that's worth something?
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Joe Stude
United States
Plymouth
Michigan
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Most of it is his demeanor, but otherwise it's that this evidence that HR Nurgle is viable runs counter to literally every other testimonial I've read.
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Kweku Abraham
United States
Oakland
California
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literally every one? Someone else (ICaenus or something) in this very thread gave their stats in first 40 HR games and said they think Nurgle is viable
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Ian B
United Kingdom
Edinburgh
Scotland
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Would it fix Nurgle to make a house rule that gives him a free Dial Advance at the beginning of the game? So he'd begin on the dial space 'Score 3 VP' and he'd actually get those 3 VP too.
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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When I was still considering the expansion I thought about skipping over Nurgles remove 1/2 corruption dial rewards. After all, they are pretty useless most of the time.
There are 3 of them, one very early which delays Nurgles first upgrade to 3 ticks instead of the 2 everybody else needs. So I'd skip over this first one for sure to even this out. Which is pretty much the same idea but you skip rather than get a headstart.
Not sure about the later two rewards of this kind. Maybe remove another one of these and still score/apply the reward, maybe skip but dont score one and keep the other, to not make the dial too short.
The reward itself is not too bad when you play for the dial. Removing a little corruption can help delay ruinations so you have more time for dial ticks. Its just that removing a single corruption token or not does not really make much of a difference most of the time. Occasionally it does but then its a pretty weak reward for a full dial tick, which in the end just makes the whole dial awfully long. Nurgles dial really should have been revised. Either that or provide him with a real option to gain additional ticks, not just a single(!) crappy card (Nurgles Quest).
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Ian B
United Kingdom
Edinburgh
Scotland
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Thanks Joel. I think I'll try it with skipping the 'remove 1 corruption' and the first 'remove 2 corruption' steps.
Do you think it would be too powerful to let the Nurgle player choose whether to take any or all of these 3 'remove corruption' ticks? If they choose not to take it then they skip past and take the next tick.
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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If you can pick, I think you'd skip over them all the time anyways. The next reward on the dial is always better than the remove corruption. So I think its better to go with a fixed scheme.
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It really frustrated me that new chaos decks came with diffirent from original decks backs, I was so hiped about a little "deck building" aspect and mixing cards'n'upgrades 4 some costumization.
BTW, Nurgle's quest is really bad.
In theory, with it you can advance dial 4 times in one turn. In practice, no one in living hell will allow you to do it.
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Ben Hodgson
United Kingdom
Tiverton
Devon
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I have played the expansion just the once, and enjoyed the feeling that most of the cards were relevant, often in unexpected ways. I bow to your colective wisdom, especially since the Bloodletter upgrade and Mystical Disregard were flagged up immediately by the group - but I would very much like to make some tweaks rather than abandon the horned rat expansion.
I have gleaned (lol) the following ideas from the above thread:
1. Reduce the Nurgle dial length - possibly by skipping 1 or 2 weaker ticks, or give better methods of advancement. Perhaps just revert back to the initial game card set (or mix and match the set maybe) for nurgle if it helps boost Nurgle back up?
2. Nerf the Khorne Bloodletter upgrade somehow? Maybe give 1.5vp per kill (rounding down the total bonus from the entire battle phase) rather than 2 vp per kill? Or just replace with the base game version?
3. Mystical disregard - allows to place in an occupied slot, and ignore the card placed there already. Perhaps force Tzeentch to use a higher cost card and not just equal or higher? Or cost a power point extra to use it?
Any stuff I missed?
I'd like to avoid making huge changes if not necessary as there is a lot I enjoyed about the expansion. Mix and match deckbuilding with a printer to change card fronts in sleeves is a possibility - I'd like there to be no 'dead' cards like poor ole Khorne in the base game often with a huge hand of useless cards.
What would you guys suggest? I know the base game is an option, but I think the expansion attempted to step forward, and I'd like to make that step rather than just step back again. 
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