Ryan Powers
United States
Marble
Minnesota
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MScrivner wrote: I can't see doing this as a viable option. At least not if you're interested in winning.
Done it face to face too. It's not like I'm suggesting making every, or even most, decisions this way. But sometimes there just isn't the into you need, and pretending it is there does more harm than good.
It's less useful face to face deciding big decision in the early stages, particularly if they're all people you know I suppose. But there are still plenty of tactical situations where you can defend one of two places with little to differentiate between them.
After your opponent who is trying to take one from you has spent his negotiation period trying to sort out which one you're going to defend and such make sure he sees you flip a coin to decide. It's disheartening to put in that much work to sort out which one is going to be defended and then realize it was pointless. Every little bit helps. Hell, even if you think you do have it figured out, do it anyhow and ignore the result.
I can't see throwing out any available chance to get in someone;'s head. At least not if you're interested in winning. 
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Randall Bart
United States
Granada Hills
California
Red October
Earth is one of my favorite planets
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fizzmore wrote:
To me Small World is dudes on a map with dice, and random race power combinations. What does Small World disagree with?
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Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
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Small World barely makes use of dice...the conquest is almost entirely deterministic (and in fact you never have to use the die). In fact, in its predecessor Vinci the reinforcement dice didn't exist, so even that small amount of randomness in combat was removed. Furthermore, the random power choices appear far enough in advance that there is very little uncertainty about the consequences of your choices. The game would play slightly differently, but still work fine if you laid out all the upcoming power choices from the beginning of the game.
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Robert Bracey
United Kingdom
London
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fizzmore wrote: Small World barely makes use of dice...the conquest is almost entirely deterministic (and in fact you never have to use the die).
Go,Chess,Civilization... there are many games like this which do not have simultaneous movement. How are they relevant to a game that does have simultaneous movement? Surely the difference here is that in Diplomacy you must make a choice knowing that your opponent has already made a move but you are not yet aware of it.
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Calavera Hermosa
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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keethrax wrote: MScrivner wrote: I can't see doing this as a viable option. At least not if you're interested in winning. Done it face to face too. It's not like I'm suggesting making every, or even most, decisions this way. But sometimes there just isn't the into you need, and pretending it is there does more harm than good. It's less useful face to face deciding big decision in the early stages, particularly if they're all people you know I suppose. But there are still plenty of tactical situations where you can defend one of two places with little to differentiate between them. After your opponent who is trying to take one from you has spent his negotiation period trying to sort out which one you're going to defend and such make sure he sees you flip a coin to decide. It's disheartening to put in that much work to sort out which one is going to be defended and then realize it was pointless. Every little bit helps. Hell, even if you think you do have it figured out, do it anyhow and ignore the result. I can't see throwing out any available chance to get in someone;'s head. At least not if you're interested in winning.
Ha ha! Fair enough - and chances are if you pulled out a dice and did this in front of me it would mess with my head. But I think it might also be used a leverage against you in negotiations - "Hey, that nutjob over there is making his decisions based on a dice roll. Can we really trust he will play in a rational fashion later on in the game? Maybe we should eliminate him first... what do you say?"
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Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
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RobertBr wrote: fizzmore wrote: Small World barely makes use of dice...the conquest is almost entirely deterministic (and in fact you never have to use the die). Go,Chess,Civilization... there are many games like this which do not have simultaneous movement. How are they relevant to a game that does have simultaneous movement? Surely the difference here is that in Diplomacy you must make a choice knowing that your opponent has already made a move but you are not yet aware of it.
If you followed the thread, you would see the relevance of my response.
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Robert Bracey
United Kingdom
London
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fizzmore wrote:
If you followed the thread, you would see the relevance of my response.
If your response made sense I would follow its relevance. There is nothing connect your line of thinking before you plucked Small World out of thin air to the line of think after that, so I am asking you to explain what the bit of thinking you have not attempted to communicate is - the bit not in the the thread.
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Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
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Quote: Every dudes-on-a-map game requires indeterminacy.
^^ Small World was brought up immediately in response this point (as a refutation). I'm not sure how much more direct the connection to the flow of the conversation can be.
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Matt Shields
United States
Portland
Oregon
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Romain wrote: When you play rock-paper-scissor, are you lucky or do you outguess your opponent?
Personally I cheat, but that's a matter for another thread.
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Matt Shields
United States
Portland
Oregon
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keethrax wrote:
I can piss off player A or player B. The board position given all the information I actually do have is equally promising in either case. It's early and no real info has been gleaned to differentiate the two players yet. Know what I do? I flip a coin.
This "big decision flip" becomes rarer and rarer as the game progresses. But is occasionally similar in a more tactical sense. Player X has the resources to take space A or B. I can defend one but not both. Both are pretty equal in terms of value to both him and me. *flip*
Works pretty well. In a face to face game you may even be able to work it as an additional angle. I've never actually tried. You may jet be seen as the random influence and ganged up on FtF too. Still if you can't figure out how to use someones ease or unease over seeing you lip a coin across the room, you're not trying very hard.
Oh I've many pretended like I was making a decision randomly, and I've pulled coins and flipped then in front of other players before. But it's usually an act. I'm usually not really using the coin to make the decision. What I'm doing is trying to persuade them that they can't outguess me by pretending my decisions are random.
I don't mean to sound arrogant, but there usually is a basis for making a decision one way or another. The more you play, the more you start to realize that.
If I can't decide which of two powers I'd prefer to work with, for example, I should look at who the *other* players on the board are and how they will affect my potential ally from the other side. There is information available there. If I choose to decide randomly, I'm choosing to not use the available information.
Like every other game, it just takes practice. The more you play the more you learn to recognize all of the information that's available and what to do with it.
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Posted Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:16 pm
