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Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
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So, it seems a Heather Peters, a former laywer in California, is upset with the Honda company about their promises for her hybrid car.

Quote:
A woman who expected her 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid to be her dream car wants Honda to pay for not delivering the high mileage it promised. But rather than joining other owners in a class-action lawsuit, she is going solo in small claims court, an unusual move that could offer a bigger payout if it doesn't backfire....

....Heather Peters says her car never came close to getting the promised 50 miles per gallon, and as its battery deteriorated, it was getting only 30 mpg. She wants Honda to pay for her trouble and the extra money she spent on gas.

Peters, a former lawyer who long ago gave up her bar card, has devised a unique legal vehicle to drive Honda into court — a small claims suit that could cost the company up to $10,000 in her case and every other individual case filed in the same manner.

If other claimants follow her lead, she estimates Honda could be forced to pay $2 billion in damages. No high-priced lawyers are involved and the process is streamlined.


-Woman takes unique road to sue Honda over mileage, AP NewsWire, 1.3.12

http://news.yahoo.com/woman-takes-unique-road-sue-honda-over...

The great thing about all of this is that the evidence standard is a lot lower than with a class action suit. Moreover, she can ANNOY the HELL out of the Corporate Officers by subpoenaing them to the court room- as I recall, California is pretty generous in who you're allowed to call into the court to give testimony.

And, as the article points out, she'll probably make more money than she would as part of a Class action suit, and certainly have it resolved one heck of a lot quicker.

Of course, some aren't happy with this. Honda, of course, could lose over $2 billion dollars if everyone went to small claims instead of a class action, where they would almost certainly do better. But what makes me chuckle are the lawyers upset at this act of 'direct democracy'.

Quote:
Aaron Jacoby, a Los Angeles attorney who heads the automotive industry group at the Arent Fox law firm, said Peters' strategy, while intriguing, is unlikely to change the course of class-action litigation.

"In the class-action, the potential claimants don't have to do anything," Jacoby said. "It's designed to be an efficient way for a court to handle multiple claims of the same type."

He also questioned her criticism of class-action lawyers for the fees they receive. Jacoby, who handles such cases, said lawyers who take on the multiple clients involved do extensive work — sometimes spanning years — and are not in it just for money.

"They're representing the underdog and they believe they are performing a public duty," he said. "Many of these people could not get lawyers to represent them individually."

American Honda's offices were closed for the holidays and no one could be reached for comment. Peters said the company has tried five times to delay the trial but each effort was rebuffed.

The upside of Peters' unusual move, she says, is that litigants are not allowed to have lawyers argue in small claims court in California. This means any award will not be diluted by attorney's fees. Honda would have to appoint a non-lawyer employee to argue its side in court.


Man, this will be fun to watch. Pass the popcorn!

Or, as my buddy Walter put it-
Quote:
Thing is, if Honda had just fixed her damn battery and given her a smile and a travel mug, she would have settled down and it would have cost Honda less than one hour of their own lawyers' fees.



Darilian
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  • Last edited Thu Jan 5, 2012 3:00 am (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Thu Jan 5, 2012 2:50 am
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Dave G
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That's a great move. I wonder how they'll get the government to squash it.
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
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I was especially dumbfounded about the class-action lawsuit. The claimants get a three (3) figure check and a discount on a new Honda while the lawyers get $8.5 million. I'm not someone who supports tort reform in order to just put ceilings on awards, but I would not fight tort reform that reigns in class-action abuses by lawyers.
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Jon
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Love it!
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Dave G
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TheChin! wrote:
I was especially dumbfounded about the class-action lawsuit. The claimants get a three (3) figure check and a discount on a new Honda while the lawyers get $8.5 million. I'm not someone who supports tort reform in order to just put ceilings on awards, but I would not fight tort reform that reigns in class-action abuses by lawyers.


Class-action lawsuits are a joke, but I don't know if there's a better system. While I'm pleased at this story in a "score one for the little guy" way, I'm not sure that bogging down the legal system with thousands of small-claims lawsuits every time there's an issue of this nature is any better. Especially when you consider that if this plaintiff wasn't a trained attorney she might find herself outmaneuvered in the courtroom by a carefully advised representative of Honda.
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
I was especially dumbfounded about the class-action lawsuit. The claimants get a three (3) figure check and a discount on a new Honda while the lawyers get $8.5 million. I'm not someone who supports tort reform in order to just put ceilings on awards, but I would not fight tort reform that reigns in class-action abuses by lawyers.


Class-action lawsuits are a joke, but I don't know if there's a better system. While I'm pleased at this story in a "score one for the little guy" way, I'm not sure that bogging down the legal system with thousands of small-claims lawsuits every time there's an issue of this nature is any better. Especially when you consider that if this plaintiff wasn't a trained attorney she might find herself outmaneuvered in the courtroom by a carefully advised representative of Honda.


I agree, I don't see the case as the long term solution, but as a wake-up call to the status-quo that has developed around class-action lawsuits. People have been lulled into signing onto these lawsuits and giving up their ability to litigate on their own for a long time now. Most people take whatever pittance the lawyers think they can get away with giving them. There is no negotiation between the victims and the lawyers. It should be more like unions, the lawyers come back with the settlement offer and all the participants vote on acceptance.
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Curious that none of our resident lawyers have chimed in on this.

Alaren? MGK? Thoughts?

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
Curious that none of our resident lawyers have chimed in on this.

Alaren? MGK? Thoughts?

Darilian


I know, I kept waiting for Golux13 to have something pithy and lawyer-y to say, but the silence is deafening.
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Dan Schaeffer
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Curious that none of our resident lawyers have chimed in on this.

Alaren? MGK? Thoughts?

Darilian


I know, I kept waiting for Golux13 to have something pithy and lawyer-y to say, but the silence is deafening.


Some lawyers actually have to do lawyer work during the day.

Once in a while, I'm one of them.
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Dave G
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Golux13 wrote:
djgutierrez77 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Curious that none of our resident lawyers have chimed in on this.

Alaren? MGK? Thoughts?

Darilian


I know, I kept waiting for Golux13 to have something pithy and lawyer-y to say, but the silence is deafening.


Some lawyers actually have to do lawyer work during the day.

Once in a while, I'm one of them.


BS, you're on your way out for game night. Don't lie to the good people of RSP, Daniel. It's beneath you.
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Off the cuff, the car was promised to get 50 mpg. It got 30.

A typical person drives 1000 miles per month. That is 20 gallons of gas at 50 mpg. She used 33 gallons.

Honda owes her 13 gallons of gas for each month she had the car. At 3. 50 per gallon and if she owned the car for 5 years, that is a little over 2500 bucks.

Any other claim will likely not be resolved in small claims. But even so, she apparently admits the car got worse mileage as it aged, which could cut the 2500 dramatically, and may cause the suit to be dismissed when she can't provide gas receipts and in some way prove those receipts match the mileage she claims to have driven.

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Christopher Bird
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Darilian wrote:
Curious that none of our resident lawyers have chimed in on this.

Alaren? MGK? Thoughts?


Can't speak for Ken, and bear in mind that different jurisdictions have different rules about small claims court - after all, here in Ontario, you can have a lawyer represent you in small claims court (although it is generally frowned upon for anything that isn't at least moderately complex) and our limit for a small claim is $25K in damages, which covers a lot of ground (you can squeeze a lot of lower-level wrongful terminations into $25K, for example, which means that a lot of businesses are finding out the hard way the price of not abiding by proper notice requirements - but I digress).

But I think the key bit is the bit you sort of overlooked:

Quote:
Peters, a former lawyer who long ago gave up her bar card, has devised a unique legal vehicle to drive Honda into court — a small claims suit that could cost the company up to $10,000 in her case and every other individual case filed in the same manner.


Simple truth: small claims court isn't a universal panacea because most people have no fucking idea of how to behave in court. They act like it's Judge Judy or something. I have seen judges straight-up throw out small claims cases that had perfectly valid causes of action and probably would have won because the plaintiff wasn't sufficiently respectful (and they were right to do so - people should respect the courts).

But beyond simple issues of conduct, there comes the problem that most people just don't know how to conduct a case. They don't know rules of evidence, or how to conduct an examination-in-chief or cross-examination (it's really nothing like TV). They're amateurs trying to do a professional's job. Now, most small claims courts have relaxed standards for this sort of thing precisely because they understand that most litigants will be self-represented, but even so, there's lots of things that won't fly even in small claims court.

In short: I don't think this person's action is mass-duplicable. Which is good, because for all the jokes about class actions, the truth about the court system is that it is always, always overburdened and underresourced, and class actions alleviate that by taking "duplicate" actions and combining them into a single case.
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I guess I'm probably wrong, but I thought the government sets the mileage testing protocol, does the actual testing, and requires the car companies to display the results on stickers on each car. If that's correct, what is she claiming Honda did wrong?
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Radioactive Man
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mightygodking wrote:
Simple truth: small claims court isn't a universal panacea because most people have no fucking idea of how to behave in court. They act like it's Judge Judy or something. I have seen judges straight-up throw out small claims cases that had perfectly valid causes of action and probably would have won because the plaintiff wasn't sufficiently respectful (and they were right to do so - people should respect the courts).


I'd have to completely disagree with the statement. Judges treat their courtrooms like their own personal fiefdom. There is nothing in the law that says I need to adhere to some individual judge's idea of the sufficiently respectful. Judges are there to represent to law. If I have a valid legal claim, it shouldn't be subject to a judge taking offense to a hole in the pair of jeans I'm wearing.
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Dave G
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Radioactive Man wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Simple truth: small claims court isn't a universal panacea because most people have no fucking idea of how to behave in court. They act like it's Judge Judy or something. I have seen judges straight-up throw out small claims cases that had perfectly valid causes of action and probably would have won because the plaintiff wasn't sufficiently respectful (and they were right to do so - people should respect the courts).


I'd have to completely disagree with the statement. Judges treat their courtrooms like their own personal fiefdom. There is nothing in the law that says I need to adhere to some individual judge's idea of the sufficiently respectful. Judges are there to represent to law. If I have a valid legal claim, it shouldn't be subject to a judge taking offense to a hole in the pair of jeans I'm wearing.


Where did he say it was about your clothes? I think it's a question of respecting the system, the judge's time, and the serious nature of a court proceeding. If you decide to be a smart-ass, or crack jokes, or (probably more likely) come in expecting the judge to hold your hand and walk you through what you need to do in the courtroom then you're not showing the court that you've taken the issue seriously.

For that matter, the way you dress does make a difference. Doesn't matter if it's court, a parent-teacher conference, or a job interview--if you show up in a NASCAR t-shirt, a ball cap, and torn jeans you're not going to get the same respect from the person across the table from you as you would have otherwise. Maybe you think that's unfair, but there are some pretty strong psychological principles at play there.
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Radioactive Man
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
Radioactive Man wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
Simple truth: small claims court isn't a universal panacea because most people have no fucking idea of how to behave in court. They act like it's Judge Judy or something. I have seen judges straight-up throw out small claims cases that had perfectly valid causes of action and probably would have won because the plaintiff wasn't sufficiently respectful (and they were right to do so - people should respect the courts).


I'd have to completely disagree with the statement. Judges treat their courtrooms like their own personal fiefdom. There is nothing in the law that says I need to adhere to some individual judge's idea of the sufficiently respectful. Judges are there to represent to law. If I have a valid legal claim, it shouldn't be subject to a judge taking offense to a hole in the pair of jeans I'm wearing.


Where did he say it was about your clothes? I think it's a question of respecting the system, the judge's time, and the serious nature of a court proceeding. If you decide to be a smart-ass, or crack jokes, or (probably more likely) come in expecting the judge to hold your hand and walk you through what you need to do in the courtroom then you're not showing the court that you've taken the issue seriously.

For that matter, the way you dress does make a difference. Doesn't matter if it's court, a parent-teacher conference, or a job interview--if you show up in a NASCAR t-shirt, a ball cap, and torn jeans you're not going to get the same respect from the person across the table from you as you would have otherwise. Maybe you think that's unfair, but there are some pretty strong psychological principles at play there.

He said it was about being "sufficiently respectful" which includes but is not limited to the clothes someone wears to court. There are well documented cases where a judge has thrown out a case because of the clothes someone was wearing, so it's not like that statement is out of the blue.

Again, it shouldn't matter whether the judge thinks you've taken the issue seriously or not. If I have a valid legal claim, the idea that a judge can ignore the legality based on their idea of whether I'm sufficiently respectful or not is complete bunk. This is not a job interview. It's arguing the legality of a claim made. An interviewer should have every right to judge whoever they are hiring based on whatever criteria they think fits the needs of the job they are hiring. A judge should not have the right to throw out legal claims on their whim.
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Dave G
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Radioactive Man wrote:

He said it was about being "sufficiently respectful" which includes but is not limited to the clothes someone wears to court. There are well documented cases where a judge has thrown out a case because of the clothes someone was wearing, so it's not like that statement is out of the blue.

Again, it shouldn't matter whether the judge thinks you've taken the issue seriously or not. If I have a valid legal claim, the idea that a judge can ignore the legality based on their idea of whether I'm sufficiently respectful or not is complete bunk. This is not a job interview. It's arguing the legality of a claim made. An interviewer should have every right to judge whoever they are hiring based on whatever criteria they think fits the needs of the job they are hiring. A judge should not have the right to throw out legal claims on their whim.


For one thing, "should not" and "don't" are not the same thing. If you want to make a point about the judge's unfair biases, feel free to tempt fate with your favorite t-shirt. If you want to win your case, though, I'd suggest doing everything you can whether you think it should be a factor or not. That's just me, YMMV.

For another, though--you're assuming the legal question is going to be simple and cut and dry, and I think that's an overreach. If the role of the two parties in the case is even partly to persuade the judge to interpret the law in their favor, I would say the judge's impression of their arguments (and that impression will include their clothes, their tone, their professionalism, and their attitude) may have some bearing. If your case is absolutely foolproof, your clothes probably won't matter a bit, but if you're trying to sway the judge on a distinct point that could go either way, I'd again suggest doing whatever you can to make sure your point is coming across.
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Radioactive Man
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
For one thing, "should not" and "don't" are not the same thing. If you want to make a point about the judge's unfair biases, feel free to tempt fate with your favorite t-shirt. If you want to win your case, though, I'd suggest doing everything you can whether you think it should be a factor or not. That's just me, YMMV.

For another, though--you're assuming the legal question is going to be simple and cut and dry, and I think that's an overreach. If the role of the two parties in the case is even partly to persuade the judge to interpret the law in their favor, I would say the judge's impression of their arguments (and that impression will include their clothes, their tone, their professionalism, and their attitude) may have some bearing. If your case is absolutely foolproof, your clothes probably won't matter a bit, but if you're trying to sway the judge on a distinct point that could go either way, I'd again suggest doing whatever you can to make sure your point is coming across.

I understand the difference between should not and does not. That's the entire point of my initial response. The statement was made that a judge does and should have the right to throw out valid claims based on the "respectfulness" of a claimant. Right now the judge does have that right, be he shouldn't. This idea that we as a society have accepted this as the right of the judge is completely wrong and a setup for abuse. It's no different than the discretion we've allowed police officers in writing citations and making arrests. There are myriad of reports about police officers finding people "disrespectful" and subsequently issuing vague citations or arresting people on bogus grounds. There's no law that says I need to be respectful to police officers or judges, and my legal claims and rights shouldn't be subject to the perception of the degree of respectfulness.
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  • Last edited Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:35 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:39 pm
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A few years ago, I needed to buy a good quality printer for an office. I put together a spreadsheet with various models across the top and cost factors down the side. How often do you have to replace the drum, how many pages do you get from each cartridge, etc. I found that printers with lower up-front costs typically ended up costing about the same amount by the time you got done with wear and tear. SO I went with the best print quality.

I did something similar with hybrid cars, back in the day. It turned out that by the time you replaced the battery every X miles, you ended up within a a hundred dollars or so of the gas car. I accounted for higher gas prices, but not as high as they've gotten. And I didn't account for diminishing returns as the battery aged, either. I decided on a regular car, as hybrids at the time were pretty sluggish, and I hate having lag between when I push the pedal and the car accelerates.

On the one hand, I feel like the battery life is a known issue and the owner didn't do enough research. On the other, hybrid manufacturers are disingenuous about the overall savings.

I think this is a great idea overall, though. If Honda really did something wrong here, and this turns into a thing, Honda would be best served by just taking care of its customers. And they'd come out of it cheaper.
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The followup, she won:
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/woman-wins-small-claims-suit-ove...
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Awesome!
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