The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Fantastiqa
Mage Knight: Board Game
Total War
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Eclipse
Mice and Mystics
Dungeon Fighter
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Lords of Waterdeep
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Libertalia
Android: Netrunner
Virgin Queen
The Lord of the Rings: Nazgul
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Dominion
Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game
Infiltration
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
Among the Stars
Twilight Struggle
The Swarm
Agricola
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Goa
7 Wonders
Glory to Rome
Arkham Horror
Village
Ora et Labora
Battles of Westeros: House Baratheon Army Expansion
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Thunder Road
Trajan
Zombicide
The Castles of Burgundy
7 Wonders: Cities
Ace of Spies
War of the Ring
Skyline
Space Alert
Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective
City of Horror
Race for the Galaxy
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Kingdom Builder
Le Havre
Battlestar Galactica
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Thumb up
63 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3  | 

Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Alliance» Forums » General

Subject: The Cyborg and the Pygmy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
salty53 wrote:
Pygmy looks like a good argument for having a separate class of half-aliens - aliens that provide a minor benefit too weak to qualify is a full alien on their own, but which give you a second half-alien power whenever you play as one. That seems like a quick and dirty way to handle powers like the Pygmy that are conceptually interesting but mechanically not terribly useful for winning the game; if Pygmy isn't competitive alone, perhaps Pygmy+Symbiote, or Pygmy+Zombie-minus-compensation, or Pygmy+Gith-in-its-most-basic-form would be. After all, if the original version of the power is anything to go by, the alternative is to tack on a weak version of the Zombie anyhow.

Hey, that's not "half" bad. For your list I would nominate Locust, Reincarnator, and at least half of the alternate-win aliens (certainly Massey and Sadie at a minimum).

I have to assume there would be virtually no hope of achieving a consensus on which aliens could qualify, so let me suggest a possible addition to your very interesting idea, based on one of my old "campaign" ideas from the Eon days. The idea was designed to make it so the aliens that "nobody ever wanted" would eventually come into play.

Each local group manages its own, evolving, "half-power" list based on a set of guidelines. The guidelines could vary, but might involve something like giving an alien certain numbers of "points" when it gets passed over at setup time, loses by a huge margin, goes an entire game without getting a benefit from its power, etc. When an alien hits a certain number of points, it goes on the half-power list. When a player wins the game while playing a half-power alien, it loses a certain number of points, possibly coming back off the list.

Granted, the tracking criteria can be subjective, but this doesn't really matter because the subjectivity does not favor any particular player. All it does is provide a framework for guiding weaker aliens onto the list, and a self-correcting mechanism for those times when aliens get on the list that perhaps shouldn't (or just need to take a break from it so they don't dominate).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Jack Reda
United States
Herndon
Virginia
designer
Guess the games in my uberbadge!
badge
My favorite game is Cosmic Encounter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The art of Pygmy is its ability to slow the advance of its enemies. Pygmy can afford to play a low attack card or negotiate and lose an encounter. His opponents don't really gain anything, and Pygmy typically only loses 1 or 2 ships. Hand management and ship resources are a very important and often overlooked aspect of the game. Not every alien can or should be about how to best win an encounter. Just sayin'.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Roberta Yang


msg tools
Bill Martinson wrote:
The guidelines could vary, but might involve something like giving an alien certain numbers of "points" when it gets passed over at setup time, loses by a huge margin, goes an entire game without getting a benefit from its power, etc.

The only problem I can see is that this might actually make things worse when the alien's weakness comes from groupthink rather than actual weakness.

For example, in my group, the Relic is awful. I'm the only one who's even willing to play it anymore, and across the last three times I've played it, it's earned me a grand total of one foreign colony. The reason? People in my group see that the Relic gets free foreign colonies when they lose their hands, so they start panicking and inviting each other as defensive allies all over to let each other draw cards. The result of the Relic's power is that the Relic gets its occasional Warp Break effect and everyone else gets lots of card draws. And since I don't see people complaining online about how weak the Relic is, I'm sure it's just my group and not a problem with the Relic itself.

But suppose we make the Relic a half-power and it gets a second alien tacked on. People will respond with the usual panic about the Relic being able to get free colonies... and then panic even more because now it has indestructible ships on top of that! Result: everyone else gets to draw more cards and the Relic is able to do even less. Sure, at least it's in the game now, but it's still not helping its user at all.

There would also need to be some mechanism for having a choice of the second half-power to stop the two half-powers from tripping over each other; as much as I dislike the Masochist, I wouldn't want to see it paired up with the Zombie or the Symbiote.

The Warp wrote:
The art of Pygmy is its ability to slow the advance of its enemies. Pygmy can afford to play a low attack card or negotiate and lose an encounter. His opponents don't really gain anything, and Pygmy typically only loses 1 or 2 ships. Hand management and ship resources are a very important and often overlooked aspect of the game. Not every alien can or should be about how to best win an encounter. Just sayin'.

And I'll repeat the same thing I said before: That still just puts Pygmy on par with Filth's secondary effect.

In fact, it's actually worse. If I beat Pygmy now, then a) Next time I beat Pygmy, I'll actually get a colony, and b) I get this pseudo-colony that can be used in response to effects like Sniveler that destroy my colonies. But if I beat Filth now, I get nothing myself, but the next time anyone - such as one of my opponents - beats the Filth, they get a full colony. The Pygmy's deterrent effect is much weaker than the Filth's, and the Filth's isn't even the main point of the power.

I also wouldn't call having only two ships per home colony an advantage. Any alien (well, except the Macron I suppose) can strip down its home colonies and leave four ships on each of its foreign colonies where they're much more safe; one of the soft benefits of targeted ship destruction powers like Hate, Shadow, and Bully is that they force players to do this. For all the Locust's weakness, I've never heard anyone criticize it by saying that returning ships from its devoured foreign colonies to its home colonies is a disadvantage on the grounds that it makes those ships easier to kill.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:38 am (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:32 am
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Adam McLean
United States
Tucson
Arizona
mbmbmbmbmb
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Not bad!

I'd leave out the "(round down each player's totals)" part. There's no need for it.

I'd also leave out the "Do not use this power unless you have an unused player color." If we like, we can replace it with, "If you don't have an unused color of planets, you can use whatever is available for the extra planets: drink coasters, half-dollar coins, pieces of paper, kinzosh lids, etc."

Quote:
In this model, the original ten planets are permanently defined as pygmies and cannot change, regardless of where they end up. New planets (such as Genesis) would never be pygmies because the defining event happens only at Game Setup time.

I don't believe there are any problems with this version being stolen, copied, etc. All the setup text is global and permanent, and whoever currently possesses the power gets to count their pygmy colonies as normal ones.

I agree.

When Locust devours a Pygmy planet, it counts a full colony toward victory, because devoured "planets" count as colonies, whereas "colonies" on Pygmy planets count as half-colonies. IOW, each Pygmy *planet* is still one planet. Only a *colonies* on Pygmy planets are halved. Likewise for the The Claw.

When players agree to grant Sniveler a colony, may he establish two half-colonies on Pygmy planets? Yes. When players do not agree to grant Sniveler a colony, is losing one half-colony from a Pygmy planet sufficient? No.

If the Siren lures the Pygmy and wins, can she get two half-colonies in Pygmy's system? Yes.

What about Relic? The power says, "gain a foreign colony in their home system on a planet of your choice." This is technically not possible in the Pygmy's system, unless he's got the Genesis planet or other planets moved to his system. He could have a colony on two planets, or half a colony on a planet, but not a colony on a planet. I'd rule that he gets two-half colonies on two planets. That seems the most fair.

Can Amoeba increase his ships beyond four when defending on a Pygmy planet? I'd say yes.

Can Disease use his power in a system where he has only a half-colony? By a literal read, no. I could be persuaded otherwise, though.

If the defender refuses to discard down to three cards, id granting the Mite a half-colony on the targeted planet sufficient? I'd say yes, despite my answers to these other questions. Because it targets a specific planet. Mite is just out of luck when facing Pygmy (though Mite might be able to force Pygmy off of one of his home planets due to the population limit, which means that even though Mite isn't gaining as much as he might like, he might do more damage to Pygmy. This evens out well, IMO.)

If Xenophile somehow gets a Pygmy planet in his home system with someone else's half-colony on it, it adds 1.5 to his attack total (if we eliminate the round down thing, as I recommend).

If the Plant has a half-colony in Pygmy's system, that is not sufficient to graft Pygmy's power.

The Genius will usually be glad to ally on offense against Pygmy, since he can take cards instead of landing on the planet anyway.



Again, I think I will use a simple solution for our group ... colonies on a Pygmy planet (that is, in the Pygmy system), are considered a colony but worth half.

So anything in our games that mention the term "colony" will also refer to colonies in the Pygmy system. For example, If players make a deal to swap colony for a colony ... they'll just need to specify where it should be when making the deal so they don't end up on a Pygmy planet with a colony only worth half (assuming one of the players already has a colony on one of those planets).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
badge
Pick a card.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
salty53 wrote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
I still don't see why it's needed for Sniveler. It can even work to the Sniveler's advantage. If Sniveler has one colony for victory, and the other players have at least one and a half colonies, Sniveler can whine truthfully that he has fewer colonies than any other player. If Sniveler has one colony and the other players all have at least three, and they don't let him take a new colony, they all lose one - if they all go down to two-and-a-half, Sniveler can whine again!.

But remember that one of Sniveler's opponents is the Pygmy itself, and the Pygmy definitely doesn't have any half-colonies to lose; every time the Sniveler whines, the Pygmy loses a full colony even if everyone else loses only half a colony. This means that any clause on the Pygmy's sheet that can reduce how often the Sniveler can whine about colonies (which the "rounded down" clause certainly does) is very much to the Pygmy's advantage, and the Pygmy's already weak enough as it is.

OK. So there are advantages and disadvantages. It still doesn't cause any rule contradictions to drop the "round down".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
badge
Pick a card.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Warp wrote:
The art of Pygmy is its ability to slow the advance of its enemies. Pygmy can afford to play a low attack card or negotiate and lose an encounter. His opponents don't really gain anything, and Pygmy typically only loses 1 or 2 ships. Hand management and ship resources are a very important and often overlooked aspect of the game. Not every alien can or should be about how to best win an encounter. Just sayin'.

And it will likely never have to defend against more than four ships. Players will rarely ever ally offensively against Pygmy, which further slows down their progress, and is a characteristic that doesn't apply to Filth.

I don't think Pygmy is necessarily as weak as people are saying.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Chris O


msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I still think Pygmy is incredibly weak because you are a non-power that just wastes people's time a bit. At best you can slow someone down by half a colony IF they target you. Other than that you have no power.

What would have made this power cooler is if you only needed like half the normal foreign colonies to win, since you are so small. Like 3 foreign colonies = win.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I see both sides of this. Mechanically, I like it. I thought it was interesting when Jack first posted it here, and still have a strange, undefinable affinity for it.

On the other hand, it does seem on the weak side. I don't think it's entirely fair to compare it to Filth, which is a very singular power (even for Cosmic) and unusually devastating in the right circumstances. So I wouldn't use Filth as the only yardstick, but it is nonetheless a reasonable comparison that explains some of the feelings about Pygmy.

Back on the first hand, I agree with Jack that we have probably underestimated the hand-management aspect a bit. All of you have made good points, and I think actually most of them are true simultaneously. We just draw different conclusions about the power's overall desirability.

Now, here's something new I just realized (and wish had occurred to me when Jack first posted his idea) that may help explain these mixed feelings: Pygmy is not really an alien power; it is actually a "reverse hex" or "special system". The pygmy alien does nothing (which is why you can't zap it); the pygmy planets do everything. The fact that the entire effect is completely tied to the planets is probably why they made it impossible to steal, copy, invert, or otherwise remove the alien sheet once it is in play; it would just make no sense for the planets to suddenly spring back to normal size. This entire effect has nothing whatsoever to do with the aliens.

In that regard, I wish it had been implemented as such: ten special reduced-size planet discs along with a rule card or paragraph on the rulesheet explaining its function, packaged in an expansion set with a bunch of other "special systems": a double-size Gas Giant planet disc, a Pulsar +/– token, a set of curved half-Ring tokens to place in front of one of the normal planets, a sixth planet disc for Six-Pact, and so on.

In that context, we would not be having a debate about Pygmy's balance vs. other alien powers or its weird unzappability. We would just be arguing about whether the Reverse Hexes should have been resurrected or not.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:09 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:01 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
badge
Pick a card.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Messianic wrote:
I still think Pygmy is incredibly weak because you are a non-power that just wastes people's time a bit. At best you can slow someone down by half a colony IF they target you.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you that Pygmy is weak, but you're not just slowing someone down by half a colony. You're slowing *everyone* down. The main player who attacks you is slowed down by half a colony. The other players are slowed down by either a half or a whole colony due to the population limit on your planets, and the disincentive to ally on offense.

In a six-player game, attacking anyone else, potentially five players could gain a colony. Attacking Pygmy, an absolute maximum of four players can gain half a colony. That's a total of three colonies for other players that are prevented by Pygmy. And it's likely even more than that because to achieve that maximum, they'd have to use one ship each - which means those colonies are easily lost (Shadow, Bully, Hate, etc.).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Jack Reda
United States
Herndon
Virginia
designer
Guess the games in my uberbadge!
badge
My favorite game is Cosmic Encounter.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I get to read a lot of homebrew ideas for powers, and the trend over the last five years has been brute force. A lot of people just want to focus on aliens that give themselves a big bonus toward encounter totals as a main player (with an unfortunate tendency to tack on the ability to subtract that amount as well). And, a lot of times they are tempted to add more effects as well. Like, you can add the number of cards in your hand to your total (or subtract that number), PLUS you get to take a card from your opponent for each ship you have in the encounter. It all smacks of lack of imagination in my opinion, and it's something I am striving to get away from. I think the Gith discussion is a great example of this. Ships in the Warp counting as a foreign colony is plenty unique, but some folks aren't content with that and would prefer to put Gith on steroids. You can't rely on the alien to do all the work for you... there's some skill as a player that should be involved.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
you're not just slowing someone down by half a colony.

This is true, and reminds me of something I thought about this morning relative to the Filth comparison: Filth slows down the first offense who has to return home, but everyone who comes along after that encounters the planet normally, and actually is in better-than-average shape because the planets have been cleared of defensive ships. So in many cases, although one player had to "beat" that planet twice, everyone after that only had to beat it once (and they didn't even have to do it all at the same time). On top of this, there sometimes are other ways to clear Filth's ships off of planets, making this part of the effect moot.

Against Pygmy, by comparison, every single player, no matter what, has to win twice to get a colony. And lest we let ourselves think of this as a 50% effect, we should keep in mind that it's 50% at best. When you have beaten Pygmy at home three times, you still have only one colony; that means your three colonies essentially count at only 33% strength.

Other differences abound. As just one example, Filth can be zapped or can have lost his power in other ways. As another, Prophet, Siren, Disease, Relic, and several other powers, flares, etc. can grab a free full-strength colony in Filth's system whenever he has a planet that he does not occupy, but Pygmy always discounts these colonies by 50 to 67 percent.

I'm not claiming it's a blockbuster, or even that everyone should like it. But I will claim that it is demonstrably superior to Filth's "fumigation" effect, especially when you consider the difficulty and/or undesirability of bringing offensive allies. (Don't forget that the more allies you have, the less likely it is that you will be able to add more of your own ships to that Pygmy planet later; if it's not already full, they might just fill it up before you can.)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:58 pm (Total Number of Edits: 3)
  • Posted Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:51 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Rob Burns
Macedonia
Skopje
mbmbmbmbmb
The thing that most encourages me about seeing Pygmy in Cosmic Alliance is that it really does seem that FFG is monitoring our "best homebrews" posts (or at least mine, heh ). Last April, I had posted a "Top Ten Homebrews that I've discovered" thread here, and in that thread, Barney had suggested Pygmy as one of his Top Ten. I wasn't so crazy about it, BUT it's encouraging that our stuff gets read. As I've said before, I'm not a power designer, but there are some good ones amidst the many cruddy or boring homebrews, and as a reviewer of homebrews, it's nice to see ones you've championed become included. Let's hope FFG took a good look at some of the other ones Barney or I championed (except Wastrel, which IMO Invader totally replaces).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Chris O


msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rjburns3 wrote:
The thing that most encourages me about seeing Pygmy in Cosmic Alliance is that it really does seem that FFG is monitoring our "best homebrews" posts (or at least mine, heh ). Last April, I had posted a "Top Ten Homebrews that I've discovered" thread here, and in that thread, Barney had suggested Pygmy as one of his Top Ten. I wasn't so crazy about it, BUT it's encouraging that our stuff gets read. As I've said before, I'm not a power designer, but there are some good ones amidst the many cruddy or boring homebrews, and as a reviewer of homebrews, it's nice to see ones you've championed become included. Let's hope FFG took a good look at some of the other ones Barney or I championed (except Wastrel, which IMO Invader totally replaces).


Our best hopes for our best homebrews are in the final expansion, I think Jack has a special relationship with Kevin Wilson as the man who has had the Warp site up for a long time which is why his homebrews have been in every expansion.

I'd like to see my Nightmare and maybe 1 or 2 others in the final expansion, and many of you guys' homebrews like Viper, etc.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3  | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.