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Subject: Summary of changes from old edition? rss

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Joe Kundlak
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Hi folks,

as I am in the middle of translating Ilya's Wiz-War redesign with a friend of mine into our local language, I would like to hear from more educated gamers, if they could summarize the changes to the new FFG release from the old edition?

I could then see if the changes could be incorporated into the translated redesign rules, if they are interesting enough...
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Greg Filpus
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The end of the new edition's rules (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wiz-war/WizWar...) have variants that restore some of the differences. So between that and off the top of my head:
-Ongoing spells you maintain and items you're carrying count towards your hand limit; treasures don't.
--This also applies to things you created, which gives you the advantage that you can dismiss, for instance, the wall created with Create Wall.
-No more "you're eliminated if both your treasures are stolen"
-You can pick up an item that isn't a treasure for one movement point without ending your turn
-Killing a wizard (directly with an attack) is worth a victory point towards winning, thus letting you win with one fewer treasure.
-Some cards can be played as a Number card instead of as a spell
-Losing a turn is replaced with "stun"- you can move or attack, but not both. ("Move" also includes "casting a spell that causes you to leave your square.) It's still cumulative, though.
-New board layouts. (On page 5 of the rules, maybe? I haven't played previous editions, and thus wouldn't recognize the old ones.)
-Spell deck is divided up into seven "schools", and you pick four to build the deck for any given game. (As a variant, you can have two separate decks with different schools)
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Ronnie Edwards
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GregF wrote:
The end of the new edition's rules (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wiz-war/WizWar...) have variants that restore some of the differences. So between that and off the top of my head:
-Ongoing spells you maintain and items you're carrying count towards your hand limit; treasures don't.
--This also applies to things you created, which gives you the advantage that you can dismiss, for instance, the wall created with Create Wall.
-No more "you're eliminated if both your treasures are stolen"
-You can pick up an item that isn't a treasure for one movement point without ending your turn
-Killing a wizard (directly with an attack) is worth a victory point towards winning, thus letting you win with one fewer treasure.
-Some cards can be played as a Number card instead of as a spell
-Losing a turn is replaced with "stun"- you can move or attack, but not both. ("Move" also includes "casting a spell that causes you to leave your square.) It's still cumulative, though.
-New board layouts. (On page 5 of the rules, maybe? I haven't played previous editions, and thus wouldn't recognize the old ones.)
-Spell deck is divided up into seven "schools", and you pick four to build the deck for any given game. (As a variant, you can have two separate decks with different schools)


I think these changes are going to make the game more balanced and fun by diminishing the swinginess!
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Sam Felice
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Looking through the new rules now. I'll comment on things I see that look different as they come up, but I don't have the old rules in front of me so this is best guess.

First obvious thing is the schools of magic. They're new. So everything having to do with them is new (i.e. the optional black cantrips, choosing schools of magic to include, etc.)

Minor differences on building the game board. The new layout, and having one player randomize all of the tiles. I guess that's because each tile is now tied to a particular wizard color (another small change). The portal changes are new (not having the opposite openings warp to each other on 2 sides of the board).

Making the "time passes" phase explicit rather than just remembering to update counters every turn. Not really a change in rules, just making things more clear than the previous rules.

Maintained spells now count as part of your hand until they expire.

You now need 2 VP to win. Treasures on your home base count as 1 VP (which goes away if the treasure moves). But you now also score a VP if you kill another player. So you could win with 1 treasure and 1 kill, or 2 kills. You still win if all other players are eliminated. Also, you no longer lose if both of your treasures are on other players' home bases.

Another minor change in that doors in your tile aren't locked to you.

Extra movement now takes "energy". In addition to energy cards that just provide energy, some spells have an energy value and can be discarded to add to your movement. These cards can also be discarded as energy to power up other spells, just like using a number card to power them up.

Spell targets are now made more explicit (e.g. "wall", "wizard", "object"). Not really a change, but definitely an improvement. Spell duration is also clarified, as are card traits.

Treasures are distinctly different from Objects. Another good clarification.

Picking up objects now costs 1 movement point, instead of ending your turn. Picking up treasures still ends your turn.

Damage to objects and walls now causes "cracks". Every exact multiple of 3 causes one crack. Any more or less is wasted damage. Doors now take 3 cracks to destroy (9 damage minimum, but could be more if you do it in 4 or 5 point increments). Walls take 5.

Outer walls can't be destroyed. Not sure if this is a change or not, as I don't think it was ever explicit. My friends and I just played as if the whole side of a tile wrapped to the other side, not just the open spaces, so destroying an outer wall just created another path to the opposite tile (or a different tile if there was a permawarp on that side of the tile). Same thing with passing through those walls (can't do it now, instead of doing it and warping).

When moving tiles, any created walls between the sectors go away, and any destroyed walls come back. This is probably just more clarification, but my group usually just rolled a die to see which tile the marker stayed with. Not sure if this was ever explicit in the rules.

There are hat tokens to identify the target of maintained spells, or the owner of objects on the board.

Stunning no longer loses a turn completely. You can attack OR move, but not both (if you attack, you can't move by any means including spell).

You now have a maximum of 20 life.

A new mechanic to avoid spells is "evade". However it's not clear if an evaded spell (like fireball) will keep going and hit something behind the wizard, or just have no effect.


It looks like a lot of the changed rules are available as "optional" rules, like maintained spells not counting toward hand limit, losing 2 treasures eliminates you, playing with all cards, picking up objects ends your turn, objects are permanent, and no VPs (just 2 treasures to win).

There are also 2 other optional rules. One involving dividing players into 2 groups, they draft schools of magic, and build a deck from the schools they drafted. Then they only draw from that deck. So 2 players would have 1 deck and the other 2 would have a different deck.

And with the VP change, you can play a longer game by requiring more VPs.


I think that about covers it.
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Eugene
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Shadis wrote:
Extra movement now takes "energy". In addition to energy cards that just provide energy, some spells have an energy value and can be discarded to add to your movement. These cards can also be discarded as energy to power up other spells, just like using a number card to power them up.

So number-only cards still exist in the FFG edition?
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Sam Felice
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Redward wrote:
I think these changes are going to make the game more balanced and fun by diminishing the swinginess!


I agree. I like the changes for the most part. There are only 2 that make it feel like a different game. The two that relate to only using treasures for winning or losing. But I think the changes are still good and will make for more balanced games, and fewer games that end up dragging on too long.

But then the real test is going to be what cards are in the game. The rules are only the framework for the game. The cards and their interaction were what made the game fun, and frustrating at times. Hopefully they've kept the fun and gotten rid of the frustration. Based on all the clarifications and streamlining in the rulebook, I'm optimistic.
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Sam Felice
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garygarison wrote:
So number-only cards still exist in the FFG edition?


Yes. there are "energy" cards that just have a number.
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Eugene
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Shadis wrote:
You now need 2 VP to win. Treasures on your home base count as 1 VP (which goes away if the treasure moves). But you now also score a VP if you kill another player.

This is probably the most game changing difference for me. A player can single-handedly take another player down to 1 life point, and then an opportunistic third party can get the credit for the kill with a simple punch? This rule change may serve to make attacks against other players less frequent.

Also, how are lingering attacks with damage every turn handled?
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Ian McCarthy
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I'm wondering about the crack mechanic. Essentially, that means that a Wizard can't punch through a door or wall, which, at least in the old game, was sometimes necessary.
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Sam Felice
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garygarison wrote:
This is probably the most game changing difference for me. A player can single-handedly take another player down to 1 life point, and then an opportunistic third party can get the credit for the kill with a simple punch? This rule change may serve to make attacks against other players less frequent.

Also, how are lingering attacks with damage every turn handled?


True. Although I don't think it will reduce attack frequency. If you hand a VP to someone else by failing to kill a wizard, then you just go after the wizard who just got that VP. Unless he just won of course. But that sounds like it would keep with the spirit of Wiz-War where you could think you were about to win, only to have victory snatched from your clutches by a failed move or another lucky wizard. Not to mention the fact that getting a permanent VP by killing someone could prove VERY tempting.

Lingering attacks are now tracked via "hats". So if I put a curse on someone that lasts 3 turns, I keep that curse in front of me, put a hat of their color on it, and if they die while I control that curse, I get credit for it.

Quote:
I'm wondering about the crack mechanic. Essentially, that means that a Wizard can't punch through a door or wall, which, at least in the old game, was sometimes necessary.


True. Maybe they reduced the necessity of doing that. Like getting rid of the spell that did damage whenever you drew a card. The only time I remember when a player had no choice but to break down a wall or door was when I walled someone into a single square, made them discard their cards, and had already cast the spell on them that makes them lose 1 life for every card you drew. They only had about 3 life left and didn't get anything useful in their first 2 cards, so their only option was to try to punch free.

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Mike Daneman
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GregF wrote:
The end of the new edition's rules (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wiz-war/WizWar...) have variants that restore some of the differences. So between that and off the top of my head:
-Ongoing spells you maintain and items you're carrying count towards your hand limit; treasures don't.
--This also applies to things you created, which gives you the advantage that you can dismiss, for instance, the wall created with Create Wall.


This rule is ok as a variant from the original. It simplifies book keeping somewhat, but for an experienced player, I'd rather play it the old way.

Quote:

-No more "you're eliminated if both your treasures are stolen"

Don't like this one. While I understand that helps reduce player elimination, it definitely removes that life-or-death struggle to keep your treasures from the others bases, which was a big part of the fun.

Quote:

-You can pick up an item that isn't a treasure for one movement point without ending your turn

This one may be ok, since by the original rules, it was very rare for someone to pick up a non-treasure object from the ground unless it was really needed by them since most of the time it wasn't worth giving up your movement points to do that. The new rule may make picking up objects more frequent.

Quote:

-Killing a wizard (directly with an attack) is worth a victory point towards winning, thus letting you win with one fewer treasure.

Ok as a variant.

Quote:

-Some cards can be played as a Number card instead of as a spell

This is good change. This was actually proposed by some people on wizwar.com a long time ago. It makes some very situational cards more useful to keep in your hand.

Quote:

-Losing a turn is replaced with "stun"- you can move or attack, but not both. ("Move" also includes "casting a spell that causes you to leave your square.) It's still cumulative, though.

This rule is for WIMPS!

Quote:

-New board layouts. (On page 5 of the rules, maybe? I haven't played previous editions, and thus wouldn't recognize the old ones.)

Haven't looked at those, but I don't like that the board edges don't link-up. Again, I realize that it's easier to understand and track, but with a little experience, the original way is much more satisfying and increases interaction in larger games since it's easier to get from one end of the board to the other.

Edit: Oops, I just checked the rules and the sector edges do link up as in the old game. The only change is that the external board edge walls cannot be destroyed. This is probably ok as it is not always clear how the sector edges linked by gates align to each other. Nonetheless, I'd probably still play with those walls being destructable.

Quote:

-Spell deck is divided up into seven "schools", and you pick four to build the deck for any given game. (As a variant, you can have two separate decks with different schools)

This is good rule as it lets you customize your game each time. However, I would probably just dump all the cards into a single deck and play that way. My current home-made deck has over 500 cards.
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Kurt Weihs
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I agree that adding vp's for player elimination is probably the biggest change. I like the rule myself. I can see where the new rules tighten up the gaming experience while keeping the flavor of the game intact. Because the old rules set is still there players can opt for an "Ironman" session with the more rigid player elimination and victory conditions without having to go digging for the Chessex game. In my experience, I found the long drawn out games where one player was eliminated early and the survivors were left in a long out treasure drag to be some of the worst games. I guess I lack the nostalgia and rose-colored glasses from the Chessex games.

As far as I can remember the exterior walls were unbreachable. We've never played where you can create a hole in an outside wall and move from one board to another.

The Magic School decks are a great way to keep card selection quick and organized. We have over 500 cards too, but using them all drives the chaos factor over the top for us. We already have "batches" of cards that we like to use. I will be curious to see if the schools match up with our batches. I can also see where the Magic School makes the possibility of expansion more organized and thematic.

So far, I am very happy with the FFG version. Probably more so because they DID include the original rules set. If you don't like the new rules the old ones are still alive and accessible.
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Ronnie Edwards
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I think I love all the new rules but my favorite thing is definitely that the old rules are included. It gives the old fans little reason to complain. If you want to play old school fine.

I only played the old game 1x and enjoyed it but had some complaints that should all be mitigated by these very well thought out shifts.

If your an old fan then remember these changes are going to simply make this game more popular which is only good since they can all be ignored if you prefer it...
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Johannes Sjolte
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KenToad wrote:
I'm wondering about the crack mechanic. Essentially, that means that a Wizard can't punch through a door or wall, which, at least in the old game, was sometimes necessary.

You still can. Doors are destroyed if they get 3 cracks. Walls are destroyed when if they get 5 cracks.
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Ian McCarthy
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Zalco wrote:
KenToad wrote:
I'm wondering about the crack mechanic. Essentially, that means that a Wizard can't punch through a door or wall, which, at least in the old game, was sometimes necessary.

You still can. Doors are destroyed if they get 3 cracks. Walls are destroyed when if they get 5 cracks.


It takes 3 damage to make a crack. Wizards punch for 1 damage.
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Eugene
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And how much damage must be dealt to deliver one crack's worth?

Edit: Answered before my question even posted.
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Ian McCarthy
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That reminds me. I don't think anyone mentioned that now you are allowed to punch either in your own square or into an adjacent square. In the old version, I believe that you were only allowed to punch something in your own square (or walls, doors) unless the thing in the adjacent square filled up the square.

That was always a confusing rule, so hopefully it's less confusing now. Someone verify this for me so that I'm sure that I'm not misremembering.
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Johannes Sjolte
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KenToad wrote:
That reminds me. I don't think anyone mentioned that now you are allowed to punch either in your own square or into an adjacent square. In the old version, I believe that you were only allowed to punch something in your own square (or walls, doors) unless the thing in the adjacent square filled up the square.

That was always a confusing rule, so hopefully it's less confusing now. Someone verify this for me so that I'm sure that I'm not misremembering.

I remember it differently, but it's a long time since I player the game, so I could be wrong.
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Johannes Sjolte
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KenToad wrote:
Zalco wrote:
KenToad wrote:
I'm wondering about the crack mechanic. Essentially, that means that a Wizard can't punch through a door or wall, which, at least in the old game, was sometimes necessary.

You still can. Doors are destroyed if they get 3 cracks. Walls are destroyed when if they get 5 cracks.


It takes 3 damage to make a crack. Wizards punch for 1 damage.


Okay, I saw that too now, and a punch only does one damage, so you can't punch through a door or a wall. You have to use an object or a spell, because all 3 damage has to be delivered at once.
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Jeremy Williams
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Sadly, there aren't enough things in this version to make me want to upgrade from my current version. Which is fine by me, actually. I was excited, but after looking through the rules, I just don't see myself making the purchase.
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Greg Filpus
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Zalco wrote:
Okay, I saw that too now, and a punch only does one damage, so you can't punch through a door or a wall. You have to use an object or a spell, because all 3 damage has to be delivered at once.


But if you want a quick houserule: When you punch an inanimate object, roll the die. On a 4, place a crack.

That's harder than the old rules (takes 20 turns rather than 15 to punch down a wall), but at least it's possible. You could also use a different die to even out the odds (roll of 5-6 on a d6).
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Aaron Trammell
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It's not quite Wiz-War if a player doesn't have to spend 20 turns punching their way through a wall.
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AngbandKing wrote:
It's not quite Wiz-War if a player doesn't have to spend 20 turns punching their way through a wall.

Well, if you only make a crack on a 4, if the die rolling was exactly even it would take about 20 turns to break through the wall. (Unless I'm misremembering? Walls take 5 cracks, right?)

Or maybe you did realize that and were just commenting on how it "fits"?
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