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Subject: The Mission Team Vote - Secret or Revealed? rss

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Matt Rice
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Hi,

Just checking;

When Voting for the Mission Team, are the Vote Cards taken and shuffled and 'secretly' revealed like the Mission Success/Fail cards?

OR does each player clearly reveal their decision in whether the Mission Team is approved or not?

Regards,

Matt
 
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Tim
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It's public, they are revealed simultaneously. Watching the voting pattern is an important part of the game.
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brian
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mattriceten wrote:
Hi,

Just checking;

When Voting for the Mission Team, are the Vote Cards taken and shuffled and 'secretly' revealed like the Mission Success/Fail cards?

OR does each player clearly reveal their decision in whether the Mission Team is approved or not?

Regards,

Matt

It is clearly revealed. Everyone places them face down until all have decided and then flip them. So you know how everyone voted.
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Agent J
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Would be a pretty sad game without a public vote...
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brian
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Jythier wrote:
Would be a pretty sad game without a public vote...

We actually played it this way the first night we tried. It made it way too easy on the Resistance. We corrected our error for the next go around and it is a MUCH better game, of course.
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Brook Gentlestream
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Jythier wrote:
Would be a pretty sad game without a public vote...

We actually played it this way the first night we tried. It made it way too easy on the Resistance. We corrected our error for the next go around and it is a MUCH better game, of course.

Yes, but you can counterbalance this by allowing spies to secretly kill off members of the resistance, ala Werewolf.
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Darren Nakamura
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Wait, how does a secret vote make things easy on the Resistance? I would guess it would make things more difficult.
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brian
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Dexter345 wrote:
Wait, how does a secret vote make things easy on the Resistance? I would guess it would make things more difficult.

Forgot we played some other rules wrong too. We slaughtered it for sure so not sure which contributed more to making it too easy for the Resistance. But now that we play right, it is much more enjoyable and tense.
 
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Igor Brígido B. Sales
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Dexter345 wrote:
Wait, how does a secret vote make things easy on the Resistance? I would guess it would make things more difficult.


You're right.
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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Would be a pretty sad game without a public vote...

I disagree. Secret voting for the mission team is a far superior game. We almost always play with the secret vote and the win ratio between resistance and imperial spies is about 55/45, which is how it should be. Not knowing what certain people voted or why adds much, much more tension to the game.

We of course are in a group that heavily analyzes and tries to determine voting even though it is secret. Try the game with secret mission voting... Trust me, it's more fun.
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Clyde W
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Machiavellian wrote:
Would be a pretty sad game without a public vote...

I disagree. Secret voting for the mission team is a far superior game. We almost always play with the secret vote and the win ratio between resistance and imperial spies is about 55/45, which is how it should be. Not knowing what certain people voted or why adds much, much more tension to the game.

We of course are in a group that heavily analyzes and tries to determine voting even though it is secret. Try the game with secret mission voting... Trust me, it's more fun.
So how does it work? Do you ask people to claim how they voted after the voting is revealed..?
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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Yes, often times we do. Or we look around the table with suspicion as to why the votes came out as they did and make accusations.

For instance, aside from the first round, if all the votes are a go for the mission... it is usually a good bet that a spy is on the team.

In a small game (5 or 6 players) if there are only two negative votes, we can usually be sure that the spies are not on this mission.

I've played with the public mission votes before and we found it just too easy to determine who the spy is. I cannot understand how the five failed mission proposals in a row could even be a possibility with open voting (that said, in my hundreds of plays with secret voting it's only happened once and that was in a nine player game)

Some have said "In a secret vote, the spies will just always vote down any non-spy team" I don't see how that could happen. Let's say there are three spies in a eight player game. The mission fails with four no votes. In most cases it's clear that the spies didn't want that mission. Make an open statement, telling the Resistance to vote for this and the mission should pass the next time. Obviously there is more paranoia and it does make things easier for the spies, but our percentage of wins is pretty even, with a slight edge to the Resistance.

If you include plot cards, I can't see how you couldn't use secret voting (except in the case of pre-select or always reveal first cards). The Resistance should win every time.

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Clyde W
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Quote:
Yes, often times we do. Or we look around the table with suspicion as to why the votes came out as they did and make accusations.
Why don't you do it EVERY time? Why just some of the time?

I'd do it every time, just to get people on record about how they voted.

Machiavellian wrote:
I've played with the public mission votes before and we found it just too easy to determine who the spy is. I cannot understand how the five failed mission proposals in a row could even be a possibility with open voting (that said, in my hundreds of plays with secret voting it's only happened once and that was in a nine player game)
I'm confused by your use of the term "failed mission proposals"... you mean "rejected"..? Even then, I'm still not sure what you mean. On the fifth proposal, it just goes, there is no vote. (A house rule that simplifies things.)

Anyway, if you play with open voting, then spies become better at voting non-obviously.

Come play a PBF game with us and see how completely misleading a public voting record can be in the hands of tricky spies.
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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“A prince must imitate the fox and the lion, for the lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves."
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A life, some would argue, is a series of problems. There’s no denying the truth in that – but why get lost in it? Why not rise above the truth… and lead a good life? Shouldn’t we all look at problems as a chance for us to find… solutions?
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Yes, I do mean Rejected mission proposals.

I do not see why on the fifth proposal (Ie, the first four were rejected and the leader position has moved to a five times) you just assume it passes. Isn't that removing a chance for the spies to win? Granted, even with our secret voting it almost never happens (only happened with new players, and even then, only once).

I do understand sneaky public voting, but even 'sneaky' public voting is less beneficial to a spy then secret voting. They can still be sneaky then as well.

I can see some spy strategies that are eliminated with the removal of open voting - For instance, a spy can't propose a team he wants to get rejected and vote against it. With open voting, there would never be a reason to vote against your own proposal.

As for why I don't ask what people voted every time, sometimes it is unnecessary. Sometimes we just 'know' or it doesn't matter.

I will give PBF a try. Name a time and place. (Though I imagine it does eliminate the reading faces/finding tells element of the game)

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Michael Logan
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Machiavellian wrote:
I do not see why on the fifth proposal (Ie, the first four were rejected and the leader position has moved to a five times) you just assume it passes. Isn't that removing a chance for the spies to win? Granted, even with our secret voting it almost never happens (only happened with new players, and even then, only once).


Why would a rebel ever vote no to Mx.5?

Also, I would expect with blind votes, during Mx.5 you would have all the spies throw fail and all the rebels though yes.

But either way, it would never pass. Mx.5 is only a mechanic that spies could win in during a game with plot cards. Never otherwise.
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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“A prince must imitate the fox and the lion, for the lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves."
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A life, some would argue, is a series of problems. There’s no denying the truth in that – but why get lost in it? Why not rise above the truth… and lead a good life? Shouldn’t we all look at problems as a chance for us to find… solutions?
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It happened once, with new players, in a eight or nine player game. I believe (this was a while ago) that the proposals kept changing and there was a good deal of mistrust going on. A spy became leader on the last vote and put up a team that some were rather sure would fail. The spies already had two mission successes. The rebellion members who voted rejection should have voted YES to the mission proposal regardless, but I seem to remember they decided they would rather have the rebellion fall apart due to indecision and mistrust, then be sabotaged.

I can see why it is house ruled an automatic pass.
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Clyde W
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Machiavellian wrote:
I will give PBF a try. Name a time and place. (Though I imagine it does eliminate the reading faces/finding tells element of the game)
Awesome! Sign up for the next game here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11865722#11865722

Watch a game that just started yesterday here: PBF37.v2 7P with Inquisitor (#37 rematch) Spies Win 1-3
 
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mateenyweeny
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cute thread
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Damien
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Machiavellian wrote:
Would be a pretty sad game without a public vote...

I disagree. Secret voting for the mission team is a far superior game. We almost always play with the secret vote and the win ratio between resistance and imperial spies is about 55/45, which is how it should be. Not knowing what certain people voted or why adds much, much more tension to the game.

We of course are in a group that heavily analyzes and tries to determine voting even though it is secret. Try the game with secret mission voting... Trust me, it's more fun.


What you said. Makes it a much more interesting game,
 
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mateenyweeny
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How can less information make the game more interesting.
If they're not accountable for the way they vote, the spies can run amok.
 
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Niccolo Machiavelli
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“A prince must imitate the fox and the lion, for the lion cannot protect himself from traps, and the fox cannot defend himself from wolves. One must therefore be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves."
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A life, some would argue, is a series of problems. There’s no denying the truth in that – but why get lost in it? Why not rise above the truth… and lead a good life? Shouldn’t we all look at problems as a chance for us to find… solutions?
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More detective work is required by the Resistance. Please keep in mind I have only ever played this face-to-face. You can pick up a lot about whether someone is a spy or a member of the resistance by what they say (or don't say) who they select for a mission, etc etc.

What is the win percentage for Imperial spies with public voting?
 
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Clyde W
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In Vanilla Resistance PBF games with public votes, spies are heavily favored to win.
 
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Michael Logan
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clydeiii wrote:
Machiavellian wrote:
I will give PBF a try. Name a time and place. (Though I imagine it does eliminate the reading faces/finding tells element of the game)
Awesome! Sign up for the next game here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/11865722#11865722

Watch a game that just started yesterday here: PBF37.v2 7P with Inquisitor (#37 rematch) Spies Win 1-3


Watch your free time go away.
 
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mateenyweeny
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clydeiii wrote:
In Vanilla Resistance PBF games with public votes, spies are heavily favored to win.


This is my concern. Does secret voting give an advantage to the rebels? I couldn't imagine it.
 
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Clyde W
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slinkydink wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
In Vanilla Resistance PBF games with public votes, spies are heavily favored to win.


This is my concern. Does secret voting give an advantage to the rebels? I couldn't imagine it.
I guess you maybe might catch a spy lying about how they voted.

Let's say you vote yes and results are one yes and six nos. You claim you voted no and another player claims they voted yes.

But then of course this assumes spies are stupid and lie about their votes.
 
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