United States
Norwood
Massachusetts
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ApolloAndy wrote: RE: Memory Games
Sure. Some people, I'm sure, enjoy playing Memory or busen memo or Simon or whatever to test how well the can remember.
Right. Thankfully Power Grid is nothing like that.
ApolloAndy wrote: For me personally, in a strategy game, I'd much rather be testing my wits against my opponent than testing my memory against his and the closer a strategy game is to testing who outwitted who instead of who outremembered who, the better, IMO.
I've never played a PG game where "forgetting" how much money an opponent had made much of a difference. I think it's a problem that does not exist. It only exists in the paranoid minds of those who think because they don't have as good a memory as the next guy, they use it as an excuse for losing.
ApolloAndy wrote:
RE: Power plants, location of step 3 card, etc.
Of course. If you could figure it out with a bunch of effort and it is advantageous to know, then why not just skip all the effort and have the knowledge anyway?
Thr application of memory skills is part of the skillset of a well-rounded gamer. You are intentionally handicapping your opponent because you lack that skill. To note, I have a terrible memory but I would lobby against writing down money or exposing money for all to see. The game is simply better that way.
ApolloAndy wrote:
RE: the three reasons
All three reasons (in a serious game, again, not in a casual game) don't hold water.
1) It's gets even more bogged down in trying to remember or write down and then having AP anyway once you read your chart.
2) There is no absence of certainty. The certainty is there if you want it.
3) The designer is wrong. I know it's not a popular thing to say and the game is otherwise excellent in every way, but because of #1 and #2, in a serious game it makes no sense to have hidden money because it's not really hidden and it's takes longer to figure it out when you "pretend" it's hidden than if people just know. (Again, this only applies in a serious game where people are really trying to win).
Yuk. Poor rationalizations at best.
ApolloAndy wrote:
RE: "Don't play with write-down-guy" responses
Sure. In a casual setting this is totally a moot point because (probably) no cares enough about the advantage to win. In a serious game (like, I'm talking a tournament) you don't really have a choice to not play against people and you certainly don't have a choice about whether they choose to memorize everyone else's $ information. Either you do and reap the benefit or you don't and are at a disadvantage.
Skillset difference. Nothing more.
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Kevin C.
United States
Bethlehem
Pennsylvania
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Quote: If someone were insisting he could, he can find himself someone else to play with.
Or you might have to if you found yourself in a group that allowed it.
Your assumption seems to be you have the imperative on your side so the other guy, being in the "wrong," would have to adjust to your way. I don't think this is necessarily the case.
Plus, how much of this "I'm not playing with you" really happens the way the bluster on BGG seems to suggest? Short of outright abuse, I've sat through many games of incongruent ethos in a polite fashion and, then, afterwards declined further games.
I doubt this would be a serious issue in person. At worst, you would sit through one game and then not play with the person again. Truth be told, the other person probably would come to the same conclusion about future partnerships.
Kevin
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Bob Melkus
Serbia
Novi Sad
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I just love how some topics grow into these great intense discussions. This started only yesterday and replies are coming in like crazy. Here are my two cents on the subject:
I think that money should be kept secret just like the game designer intended. I think that playing open just gives some people too much of an edge at the end e.g. outbidding someone because you knew exactly how much money he/she had left and you won the game because of it is not cool.
If people want to keep track of everyone's money on a paper, let them, but limit the time they can spend, so if they spend all that time writing stuff down they won't have enough time to calculate their own money, and thus, will have no chance of winning.
Saying that someone can memorize exactly how much money everyone has is just crazy. I know these "rain man" people exist, but there are one in a million. Playing a game with 4-5 players where everyone buys plants, resources, cities, spending money and than earns money by powering... on and on... no one can keep track. And even if you meet one of the people who are that gifted in the memory department, their strategy will lack for sure. I bet I could beat Rain Man in PG.
The comment about "punching people"... I won't even go there.
Great game, great thread, good reading.
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Apollo Andy
United States
Fort Worth
Texas
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markgravitygood wrote:
I've never played a PG game where "forgetting" how much money an opponent had made much of a difference. I think it's a problem that does not exist.
If this is the case then it shouldn't matter knowing either. The fact is that it does provide *some* advantage and if you're playing to win, you will seize this advantage.
markgravitygood wrote: ApolloAndy wrote:
RE: the three reasons
All three reasons (in a serious game, again, not in a casual game) don't hold water.
1) It's gets even more bogged down in trying to remember or write down and then having AP anyway once you read your chart.
2) There is no absence of certainty. The certainty is there if you want it.
3) The designer is wrong. I know it's not a popular thing to say and the game is otherwise excellent in every way, but because of #1 and #2, in a serious game it makes no sense to have hidden money because it's not really hidden and it's takes longer to figure it out when you "pretend" it's hidden than if people just know. (Again, this only applies in a serious game where people are really trying to win).
Yuk. Poor rationalizations at best.
Would you care to elaborate? In what way are any of my 3 counter points incorrect?
In general I will concede that if pen and paper are forbidden, then memorization is a part of Power Grid and that's okay. I personally would much prefer "Power Grid without memorization" to "Power Grid with memorization" but if that's the game that the designer designed then so be it. (Bridge is still a good game, even though I would prefer not having to count cards.)
However, Power Grid as such does not forbid pen and paper so really the choice is between "Power Grid where you know how much money everyone has because you wrote it down" vs. "Power Grid where you know how much money everyone has because you can see it." Clearly in that choice the latter is preferable.
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norman rule
United States
Columbia
Maryland
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natsean wrote: Your assumption seems to be you have the imperative on your side so the other guy, being in the "wrong," would have to adjust to your way. I don't think this is necessarily the case.
How do you get that? I said he could find someone else to play with. That's all I said or implied. If it's his table or a house rule or something like that, I'll find another game to play.
But as for as "wrong"... The Designer recommends that money be hidden. Using mechanical aids to help you track hidden information seems (to me at least) to be contrary to the spirit of the game.
Just my $0.02.
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Steve Bauer
United States
Gilbert
Arizona
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sybrwookie wrote: sbauer9 wrote: No where in the rules does it say you can't use a paper and pencil to keep track of money. Nowhere in the rules does it say I can't punch someone in the face for outbidding me on a power plant I want. Sure, my opponents probable prefer that we use this "no face-punching" variant, but since it's not explicitly stated in the rules, unless it's declared before the game, it's a perfectly legal move.
You broke the first rule of our club!
And now you making me break it.
I am saying stop!
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Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
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sbauer9 wrote: sybrwookie wrote: Nowhere in the rules does it say I can't punch someone in the face for outbidding me on a power plant I want. Sure, my opponents probable prefer that we use this "no face-punching" variant, but since it's not explicitly stated in the rules, unless it's declared before the game, it's a perfectly legal move. You broke the first rule of our club!
The first rule of Power Grid Club is you do not get caught in endless debates about whether money is secret or public!
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Nick King
United States
Norcross
Georgia
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markgravitygood wrote: I've never played a PG game where "forgetting" how much money an opponent had made much of a difference. I think it's a problem that does not exist. It only exists in the paranoid minds of those who think because they don't have as good a memory as the next guy, they use it as an excuse for losing.
How can this be even remotely observable? How would you be able to determine if you lost because of a strategic blunder or if it was because you thought someone had $1 less than they actually had? There are too many steps of obfuscation to be able to reverse engineer down to the dollar where your mistake was made, particularly when money is secret.
This is akin to someone saying "There is no way you were at the party, I didn't see you there and I was there the whole time!"
This discussion is odd in general, not due to the Hidden vs. Open arguments, but the fallacies presented at each step of the way. To say that you can write people's money down because it doesn't say you can't is the same as saying you can remove opponents cities from the board. It surely doesn't mention that either.
Games don't work at all if you assume the positive unless the negative is stated. Every rule book would be phone book sized.
I think the primary reason the discussion devolves into crazy fallacious rhetoric is because of how simple it is, now that there is official word on it.
If you want memory to be a part of the Power Grid you're playing, keep it secret.
If you want don't want memory to be a part of the Power Grid you're playing, allow it to be open.
If you want to play "as the designer intended," keep it secret, as that is what the FAQ reads.
For very well thought out reasoning behind open secrets for publicly trackable information, see the profile of
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
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Frankly, I would never allow anyone to put my game components in their pockets.
I play PG with money stacked on the table, but do not allow other players to count it.
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Robert Sheets
United States
Oregon
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Quote: Frankly, I would never allow anyone to put my game components in their pockets.
I play PG with money stacked on the table, but do not allow other players to count it.
That is how we play it. Just a single stack of money, per player, so everyone can eyeball it. Everyone is happy doing it this way and the money doesn't get damaged up or lost.
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