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Subject: Wargames subdomain has two new forum options rss

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Andy Beaton
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dawn_cherri wrote:
THANK YOU OCTAVIAN

Thank You, Thank You.

I won't go on about how sorry this forum has become in the last 2 years, suffice it to say this change is long over due.

Now, do you have the courage to stick with it?
That is the question. Or will you succumb to the mob?

Look at the members that are against this and ask yourself: have they done anything to improve things here or are they part of the problem with their idiotic threads and childish repetitive memes?
.
.
.

Clean it up.


The irony of posting this and an inaugural post in the new AWOL subforum of Brezhnev in his swimsuit has not been lost on me.
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Kev.
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dawn_cherri wrote:
THANK YOU OCTAVIAN

Thank You, Thank You.

I won't go on about how sorry this forum has become in the last 2 years, suffice it to say this change is long over due.

Now, do you have the courage to stick with it?
That is the question. Or will you succumb to the mob?

Look at the members that are against this and ask yourself: have they done anything to improve things here or are they part of the problem with their idiotic threads and childish repetitive memes?

My advice is to stick with your changes (they are perfect) do not back down. Stand your ground.

What are the haters going to do anyway?
Stop posting? Stop logging on? Use another website? laugh
Hardly.

They will give in. They will accept.
Quote:
Remember the old adage - if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!!!

It is broken. It is a mockery.
Clean it up. This is what you get for act like fools.

Clean it up.

Well Dawn, maybe "your" mob who have their own little place on Yahoo to be silly and churlish and small minded should stop complaining? Or this is not about that?

Most of us ignore the stupidity. Whats the real problem or goal? Perhaps you could help some of us 'new' haters understand what the problem is, instead of your comments above?

I'd really like to understand your point of view. But your invective is a little strident.
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Kev.
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Octavian wrote:
This has been requested a number of times, so we've pulled the trigger and added some new options for the Wargames family:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forums/family/4664/wargames

General will remain the main face of the Wargames subdomain to focus on talking about specific wargames and wargaming in general.

Historical Context is for discussing history, current events, and news items that relate to topics covered in wargames, either actual or hypothetical.

AWOL is where you talk about everything else. So if you want to discuss the NFL, but just with other wargamers, you can go AWOL. (Note: RSP topics will still get moderated and quarantined to RSP.)

These new forums will help keep threads under the Wargames umbrella rather than moved elsewhere. The new options won't show up in the front page Subdomain module to keep non-wargaming riff-raff like me from interjecting.

Link to the forums:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forums/family/4664/wargames

Link to the module showing all the forums:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgamesubdomain/4664/wargame...

Subscribe/Bookmark/Quickbar as you see fit for easy access.

I know how much y'all love change but let's work with this for a couple months so we can work out the kinks before passing final judgment.

-MMM


Let me help, I'll start flagging all the naughty posts and wrong forum!
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I sent geekmails to a few relevant people. Mainly asking "if the redesign theoretically solves the main concerns, why do it now?"
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bruinrefugee
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This is a change looking for a problem, if you ask me. I'm one of the users who navigates off the front page and wouldn't be on the site if not for the war-game content. The history and the game discussions inseparably bleed together because that's what our games are "about"].

Or, to put it another way -- I care about scanning 100% of the war-game subdomain's topics and maybe, on a good day, 1 to 2% of what passes through on everything else. Maybe. And a good part of that is because the history discussions help drive my purchase and playing decisions (and vice versa).

Making my experience less user-friendly is not helpful; it just adds another -- very substantial in my mind -- gripe.



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Ryan Powers
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bruinrefugee wrote:
This is a change looking for a problem, if you ask me. I



Everybody points this out every time Octavian decides to take sharp implements and apply them to demolishing the wargames forum. And he's yet to demonstrate a problem.
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Bill Lawson
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Before we all freakout over this I will see what happens.
Putting wargames in a subdomain had the effect on me of taking me out of the BGG community at large and making me much closer with all of you.
Things were different but totally acceptable. In the end this may be a Tempest in a Tea Pot.
However, I encourage all of you to sign up at CSW Social
http://social.consimworld.com/
If we all signed up over there in mass that place would rock! They will never segregate us or make us feel unwelcome.
I intend to stay on BGG regardless, it is an invaluable information tool.
I just may do most of my discussion and socializing at a combination of places. I find many of the same guys I like to hang out with at CSW already.
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Kev.
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billyboy wrote:
Before we all freakout over this I will see what happens.
Putting wargames in a subdomain had the effect on me of taking me out of the BGG community at large and making me much closer with all of you.
Things were different but totally acceptable. In the end this may be a Tempest in a Tea Pot.
However, I encourage all of you to sign up at CSW Social
http://social.consimworld.com/
If we all signed up over there in mass that place would rock! They will never segregate us or make us feel unwelcome.
I intend to stay on BGG regardless, it is an invaluable information tool.
I just may do most of my discussion and socializing at a combination of places. I find many of the same guys I like to hang out with at CSW already.

many are aghast at facebook, but the historical gaming group over there is pretty reasonable. no suitable for long forum conversations but it has a robust 1000 members+. CSW social is a great idea.
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Ryan Powers
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billyboy wrote:
Before we all freakout over this I will see what happens.
Putting wargames in a subdomain had the effect on me of taking me out of the BGG community at large and making me much closer with all of you.
*

It worked because it didn't pull it off the front page (at least not unless you wanted it to.) This isn't like that. I was heartily in favor of that change as long as it had a front page presence, and look how well its worked out. The subdomain is staggeringly successful compared to the others. Instead, this is Octavian's semi-annual assault on the wargames forum, done with the usual lack of logical forethought.

Its exactly the sort of thing that I though we had moved beyond when we got our own mod. Now I'm not sure which I'm more pissed about. This idiotic change, or being duped.

Frankly, even if this gets undone (which I rate as extremely unlikely), the writing's on the wall. It will keep happening until it sticks, even when the logical response is to wait until the redesign is done. It's a blatantly obvious solution given the stated motives. Which means the motives are likely false.
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Enrico Viglino
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hipshot wrote:
billyboy wrote:
Before we all freakout over this I will see what happens.
Putting wargames in a subdomain had the effect on me of taking me out of the BGG community at large and making me much closer with all of you.
Things were different but totally acceptable. In the end this may be a Tempest in a Tea Pot.
However, I encourage all of you to sign up at CSW Social
http://social.consimworld.com/
If we all signed up over there in mass that place would rock! They will never segregate us or make us feel unwelcome.
I intend to stay on BGG regardless, it is an invaluable information tool.
I just may do most of my discussion and socializing at a combination of places. I find many of the same guys I like to hang out with at CSW already. :D

many are aghast at facebook, but the historical gaming group over there is pretty reasonable. no suitable for long forum conversations but it has a robust 1000 members+. CSW social is a great idea.


It would take some getting used to.
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Alex H.
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I know I will probably get some flack for this but being someone who likes to visit the wargames subdomain pretty regularly without being one of the very active posters I think that the new subforums might actually be an improvement. I say "might" because I reserve final judgement until I have seen them in action. Right now, I really like the wargame-related discussions here but all too often (for my personal taste) I end up in threads that are only remotely related to wargames and focus on related topics instead (recent example: the wave of polls during the last few days). Sure, you can say that it is my fault to visit those threads. But since we are talking about matters of personal taste here, I would prefer to have those subforums help me out sorting what is of interest to me and what not.
There might be a few threads I will miss on the front page due to the new structure but overall this looks like a very manageable problem.

(Getting daring now Also, I have never bought into this whole "the Eurogamers are after us"-thing and I can see how from a non-wargamer's perspective sometimes seeing the subdomain frame on the front page getting very, very crowded with non-gaming-related topics posted in the wargames subdomain can be a little annoying.
Ok, taking cover...
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Hunga Dunga
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I've been a proponent of at least a couple more folders here for a while now. I'm happy to know that BGG admins are listening!

And I'm pretty sure this is NOT a conspiracy. (But that's what I would say even if it were a conspiracy, so I'll leave it up to you to decide...)

I'm willing to give it a try and see how it works.

I still have a couple of concerns that have already been expressed here:

1. the ability to see all threads from my front page (I understand this will be fixed with the re-design?).

2. Some cultural sensitivity when moving threads to the AWOL section. E.g. I don't think the Barbarossa thread should have been moved there. The third thread that does "polls on polls" should be there!

3. I'm not sure "Historical Context" is the right name. Why not just plain "History"?
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Ryan Powers
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alex352 wrote:
I know I will probably get some flack for this but being


No flak form me, provided I can keep whatever I want on the front page and you can get rid of whatever you want. Which sounds doable giving the split and the redesign. So roll it out after the redesign and you'll just get the "I whine about any change no matter what" complaints that are unavoidable.
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Hungadunga wrote:

1. the ability to see all threads from my front page (I understand this will be fixed with the re-design?).



I'd be a big proponent too given this. So why not do it then?

It really is that simple. And it's so simple and obvious that I can't help but think if being usable were the goal it would wait.

One of the big problems with BGG is that with the vast breath of information it's hard to find stuff. This is one of the reasons for the customizable front page in the first place. This just deliberately made that worse.
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Hunga Dunga
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keethrax wrote:
Hungadunga wrote:

1. the ability to see all threads from my front page (I understand this will be fixed with the re-design?).

I'd be a big proponent too given this. So why not do it then?

Maybe.

But on the other hand, as much as I am willing to dive into utter silliness as anyone else here from time to time, the idea of knowing there's a folder that contains nothing but history/current events threads, that really appeals to me.

For those who are threatening to decamp to CSW, they do more or less the same thing with their "literary" folders, only that folder has THIRTY-TWO sub-folders, way more than what is being tried out here...
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Erik Nicely
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This change would have been much better after the site redesign, oh well. I've added quickbar links to the wargame forum index. Doesn't mean I'll click through all of them and I'll use the forums less until the redesign but that's not going to change my life at all. Subscribing to the 3 new forums is out of the question. Looking forward to that redesign though.
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OK, I'm going to take off my wargamer hat for a second and put on my designer/UX guy of 20+ years hat. There. Smug. Snug.

There is clearly a need, to my mind, for two these subforums. Discussions about wargames, and discussion around topics of interest related to war/military history. I'm not addressing front page issues or overall usability of the BGG interface (and don't get me started on the demonstrable and quantifiable UX mess that is Consim), simply that there are two categories of military topics being discussed that would benefit from a separation for that specific use.

One is about wargames. What wargames you played last month. Recommendations for wargames for this period or that conflict. Discussion about mechanics in tactical vs strategic games. SPI or AH? That's about wargames. TCS vs SCS vs OCS? What is elegance in wargame design? Should In play ASL? Ground scale in miniature gaming. What's the best Napoleonic strategic game? Compare game X with game Y. These are about games.

One is about military topics that aren't games. I posted the other day about finding general WW2 books for my dad. That's a military/history topic, and has nothing to do with wargames. Introducing your avatar has nothing to do with games (but it might be history related). Book recommendations. Discussions about this Confederate general or that, or a specific battle and it's influence in a later campaign. Discussions about how the German economy in 1919-1933 influenced the arms build-up. Lost WW1 dogtags returned, Etc. These aren't about wargames and need to be separated.

I personally like the idea and usability of two forums and could professionally demonstrate the usability issues to support said separation if I had the time. This decision does provide better separation of content and a choice for users who want to know about wargames in general, versus news about military topics (or vice versa). Just update your RSS reader or add an extra bookmark to your browser and you're good to go.

My $0.02. I think Octavian's made the correct move from a usability point of view within the military gaming forums for the benefit of all BGG users (not just us old cranky grogs).
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dawn_cherri wrote:
THANK YOU OCTAVIAN

Thank You, Thank You.

I won't go on about how sorry this forum has become in the last 2 years, suffice it to say this change is long over due.

Now, do you have the courage to stick with it?
That is the question. Or will you succumb to the mob?

Look at the members that are against this and ask yourself: have they done anything to improve things here or are they part of the problem with their idiotic threads and childish repetitive memes?

My advice is to stick with your changes (they are perfect) do not back down. Stand your ground.

What are the haters going to do anyway?
Stop posting? Stop logging on? Use another website? laugh
Hardly.

They will give in. They will accept.
Quote:
Remember the old adage - if it ain't broke, DON'T FIX IT!!!

It is broken. It is a mockery.
Clean it up. This is what you get for act like fools.

Clean it up.


If you're so offended by everyone "act like fools" and how sorry the forum has gotten, why don't you just go elsewhere and leave those of us that rather enjoy it the way it is to keep doing so? I think if nothing else the front page poll would show that a large portion of the Wargames userbase dislike this change.

Not to mention that a lot of the users who are against this, who you accuse of being perpetuators of idiotic threads and childish memes, are pretty much the core users on this forum (myself not included). Maybe show a little respect to people that have contributed a whole lot more than you have in the six months since you started posting here relatively consistently.
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Ryan Powers
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Hungadunga wrote:

But on the other hand, as much as I am willing to dive into utter silliness as anyone else here from time to time, the idea of knowing there's a folder that contains nothing but history/current events threads, that really appeals to me.


That's not the other hand. That's the same hand. Do it when the system is in place and damn near everybody's happy. You, me, them. This is doubly obvious when that system is supposedly on the way already. Do it in a away that gimps the system for a decent subset of users is foolish. Doing it right is a good idea, half-assing it is not. Not terribly complicated really.

Quote:

For those who are threatening to decamp to CSW, they do more or less the same thing with their "literary" folders, only that folder has THIRTY-TWO sub-folders, way more than what is being tried out here...


Yes. The CSW interface is bad. Really bad. That's why I'm here in the first place, despite being a CSW member from before BGG even existed. While this doesn't make the interface here as bad, it moves it distinctly in the direction of working like CSW. So in short: The CSW interface is terrible and any moves to make this interface (as opposed to organization) more like that one is foolish.

Pointing out how bad the CSW interface is in support of BGGs making this one more like it doesn't seem very useful to me.

You're happy about the reorganization. Great. Good for you. So am I actually. But I'm not happy about its affect on the interface when the way around that is clear.
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Brian Cox
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bob_santafe wrote:
It's healthy to have both history and wargames entries read by anyone who simply reads the front page, (an interest in history might lead to an interest in wargames, which would expand the hobby)


As a wargame newbie, I don't yet have an opinion either way, but this comment is how I developed an interest in wargaming. I saw that the majority of subdomain forums posts were wargame related, as opposed to other subdomains, and I got interested. From there, I did more research and put a ton of wargames on my "Want in Trade" list and then made a math trade for a few. Now I've played a few games of Memoir '44, sat down with Toe-to-Toe Nu'klr Combat with the Rooskies, and I'm in the middle of my rulebook for Fields of Fire. Just some thoughts.
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Leo Zappa
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I'm not going to suggest that there is any kind of plan by the site admins to 'destroy' or otherwise 'remove' wargamers from BGG. Octavian, aka, Matthew, is a good guy and I've had nothing but good dealings with him. All I am saying is that it should be obvious that:

1) The Wargames subdomain is the most active and most successful of the subdomains on BGG.

2) Nearly all of the people who frequent the Wargames subdomain do so from the frontpage.

3) The majority of Wargames subdomain users have expressed a desire to ensure that all of the Wargames subdomain threads remain viewable from the front page.

So, with the case being that the new subforums will not be viewable from the frontpage until the site redesign is launched, I will reiterate one more time that the logical step from here is to not utilize the subforums until the site redesign is launched.

I would ask Octvaian and Leroy to do the following at this point:


a) Return the threads already moved to AWOL and Historical Content BACK to General, so that they will once again be viewable on the frontpage.

b) Do NOT move any more threads to AWOL or Historical Content UNTIL the site redesign is launched and it is CONFIRMED that these subforums will be viewable from the frontpage.

Not that I need more thumbs, but I'd humbly request that other members of the Wargames subdomain that agree with the above indicate so by thumbing this post.

Sincerely,
Leo
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desertfox2004 wrote:
I'm not going to suggest that there is any kind of plan by the site admins to 'destroy' or otherwise 'remove' wargamers from BGG. Octavian, aka, Matthew, is a good guy and I've had nothing but good dealings with him. All I am saying is that it should be obvious that:


I don't mean to imply that that's his *intent*. But it seems we went over all of this with him not that long ago. And he seems to be acting in the same way now that he was then, when he was demonstrably wrong.

Further, it may also very well not be his idea, but as the forum guy he gets to be the face of it. Sucks to be him if that's the case, but comes with the territory.

EDIT: To elaborate some, if I thought it was due to actual malice, why would I bother trying to change it? The only reason to participate in this thread is if you do not believe malicious intent.
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Enrico Viglino
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DaveyJJ wrote:

One is about military topics that aren't games. I posted the other day about finding general WW2 books for my dad. That's a military/history topic, and has nothing to do with wargames. Introducing your avatar has nothing to do with games (but it might be history related). Book recommendations. Discussions about this Confederate general or that, or a specific battle and it's influence in a later campaign. Discussions about how the German economy in 1919-1933 influenced the arms build-up. Lost WW1 dogtags returned, Etc. These aren't about wargames and need to be separated.

I personally like the idea and usability of two forums and could professionally demonstrate the usability issues to support said separation if I had the time. This decision does provide better separation of content and a choice for users who want to know about wargames in general, versus news about military topics (or vice versa). Just update your RSS reader or add an extra bookmark to your browser and you're good to go.


I've mixed views on this aspect. I read maybe 5% of the historical
stuff, and am mostly happy to stop altogether. But, there's something
in me that says we're losing some of the tie between the community
by not catching those (like me) who sure as hell ain't gonna dive
into a section of the site which is only 5% of interest.

It's the OTHER part which really worries me - this AWOL, which if
I understand it's purpose, strikes me as some sort of underclass
of threads, designed to serve as a dumping ground for whatever
some arbiter considers silly. Although this may seem like some
sort of compromise between just dustbinning them into RSP and
leaving them to clutter up the main area, it's not. Indeed, it
seems to have proven to allow for a lower threshold of 'irrelevant'
to be closeted out of main sight. Most people aren't going to subscribe
to a garbage bin; and people are unlikely to post to it. But the
purpose of the silly threads strikes me as a way to make a complaint
or joke VISIBLE. Yeah, it annoys some people, but if that policy
change was so important, you wouldn't need a special place for
wargamer trash.
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calandale wrote:
Most people aren't going to subscribe
to a garbage bin; and people are unlikely to post to it. But the
purpose of the silly threads strikes me as a way to make a complaint
or joke VISIBLE.


I agree, dumping many of the things I think will end up there is probably not the right answer. They should probably just get axed instead of moved there. If I were modding it, they'd just get nuked. But apparently too many of the users of this forum think it's cute to beat each meme absolutely to death, so it's their fault not the mods.
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DaveyJJ wrote:

One is about military topics that aren't games. I posted the other day about finding general WW2 books for my dad. That's a military/history topic, and has nothing to do with wargames. Introducing your avatar has nothing to do with games (but it might be history related). Book recommendations. Discussions about this Confederate general or that, or a specific battle and it's influence in a later campaign. Discussions about how the German economy in 1919-1933 influenced the arms build-up. Lost WW1 dogtags returned, Etc. These aren't about wargames and need to be separated.

I personally like the idea and usability of two forums and could professionally demonstrate the usability issues to support said separation if I had the time. This decision does provide better separation of content and a choice for users who want to know about wargames in general, versus news about military topics (or vice versa). Just update your RSS reader or add an extra bookmark to your browser and you're good to go.


Given the hypothetical redesign. I agree. But since the divisions as they exist now aren't just organizational divisions, but functional ones, this falls apart as currently implemented. It's not a function of the separation itself being bad, but of the subdomain system being poorly thought out to begin with.

Thus the many requests to do this after the site design is in place to properly support it. Doesn't exist at this point, and your alternatives are *not* remotely similar enough to replace the way many interact with it.
 
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