Johnny Big Bird
United States
Manassas
Virginia
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I have played D-Day over twenty times.
Edition
1965 with strategic bombing rules.
Artwork
Excellent for the box while it is fair and accurate for the board and pieces. It is one of my favorite boxes for Avalon Hill wargames. The box has headlines of the invasion of France and a description of what you will experience if you buy the game -- as an armchair general. The board has symbols for cities and colors for fortified areas and mountains and rivers. Nothing special or very exciting, but it works. The pieces have numbers representing combat strength and movement allowance and symbols to represent the type of unit. Colors differentiate the Allied from German pieces. Notations also provide information on nationality of Allied pieces.
Counters
The standard Avalon Hill shiny one- sided die cut counters. Armor, infantry, paratroopers, static (beach defense), and headquarters units round out the counter mix. Only the Allied paratrooper units have any special abilities. They can drop behind enemy lines twice per game. Contrary to common belief, the counters are not blue for the Allies and Red for the German. They are light blue for the Allies and Pink for the German.
Rules
Easy to understand. Standard Avalon Hill hex wargame rules with movement, combat, and zones of control. Uses AH’s standard Combat Results Table (CRT) as well with 3-1 guaranteeing at least a tie. No movement after combat to exploit breakthroughs. The only advance after combat is for victorious units in a battle who can take the losers space/hex. There are as mentioned special rules that allow the Allied player to make up to two air drops of his paratroop units. There are rules for isolation and supply. There are special rules for invasions, two of which are allowed. There are also strategic bombing rules which allow the American strategic bombing attacks on six stacks of German units during the game. The replacement rules favor the Germans, provide them with five factors of replacements while the Allies only get two. The reinforcement rules though favor the Allies. They have massive numbers of reinforcements in waiting. The Germans get none.
Play Balance
Not really. I have found that the Allied player wins most every time with these 1965 edition rules. Two changes from the earlier rules switched the play balance from favoring the Germans to now heavily favoring the Allies. They are the addition of the strategic bombing rules for the Allied player which can be devastating to the German defense if they are effective. They kill at least two German units 2/3 of the time. In addition, allowing the Allied player a second invasion after the eighth turn also turns the tide against the German player. If the first invasion is a more westerly beach, the Germans now must consider keeping much if not most of their forces continuing to guard the more easterly beaches – in case of a second invasion. Realistic to be sure since the Germans did not strike back at the Normandy invasion with all they had, believing the main invasion would be coming later at Pas De Calais.
Complexity
Simple to Intermediate.
Realistic/Historical Simulation?
Somewhat. The German setup to protect as much of France and the low countries as possible is well done. There are just not enough troops to make all beaches impregnable. The beach invasion rules are good, showing how difficult it was to get a beach head. There are no naval bombardment rules though and the strategic bombing rules are very simplistic and are not really strategic bombing rules at all. These rules actually simulate air attacks on German units. These rules put a high degree of luck into these attacks. With great luck (die rolls) by the Allied player, the Germans are quickly doomed. With very poor luck by the Allied player, the Germans may have a chance, but it is still tough to win. The paratroop rules are a bit off from reality also. The units land precisely where you command them which helps to cut off German retreat routes. In real life many of the units got lost in landing and had trouble coordinating attacks with ground and armor units. It would not have been difficult to randomize their actual drop hex. The reinforcement rules for the Germans are not realistic either. The Germans have none. In the actual campaign, they pulled forces from the east for a reinforced Ardennes Offensive in December 1944.
Luck
Some, particularly important in the strategic air attacks and any Allied attacks into defended beaches. The luck in the rest of the battles is not that crucial and will tend to balance itself out.
Time to Set Up
Long. About an hour for a new player. I have played enough that set up is down to about 20 minutes. Not a whole lot of thinking for me, but still a bit time consuming .
Time to Play
Several hours – maybe six if the German player can hold on. If the American player gets lucky or the German player makes a few disastrous moves, the game can end in two hours or less.
Critical pieces
No, any lost can be duplicated with no loss of game play.
Solitaire
Yes the game can easily be played solitaire, although virtually all of my games have been against an opponent.
Can a Novice Beat an Experienced Player
Doubtful unless the experienced player wants to lose. It is very difficult to win as the German, so a novice should be given the Allied side. With good luck on the strategic attacks they may have a chance.
Replayability
Absolutely. I played it over 20 times. Of course it was one of the few wargames I had at the time that played a role. With the multiple invasion sites, you can play over and over attacking different ones and find a fun play as the Allied player. The German player has quite a challenge of it no matter where the Allies invade, unless they have poor luck and are crushed on the first invasion – which is possible, but unlikely.
Slugfest?
Not really. There may be lots of pieces wiped out in the invasion turn, but after that it settles down to the Allies trying to break through or go around the German line. Possible to do with good strategic bombing and paratroop drops. These are limited though so not every turn has masses of units flying off the board into the dead pile.
Rating
6.0. Not a great game, but I like it because you have lots of choices as the Allies: where to invade, where and when to use strategic bombing, and where and when to drop paratroopers, and if and when and where to land a second invasion force. Provides lots of variety to both players. The Germans do not have as many choices, but they have some, such as how to defend the beaches, whether to counterattack a poor invasion attempt by the Allies, and how and when to fight a slow effective withdrawal to the Rhine. All that being said, I would play a game if offered and in fact played one just a couple of months ago. If given my choice I would prefer to play Breakout and Pursuit by SPI.
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Peter Martin
United States
Oceanside
California
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I still remember being introduced the wargaming when I was eleven years old with this game. I played the Allies and never stayed on the beach. I think my wargame buddy and I moved on to play Midway and never played this one again. A couple of years later, my Dad and I played it and he clocked me with the Allies, so you can win with them.
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A fantastic classic that I'm still willing to play nowadays.
My son is turning 7 soon and I'm bringing this to the table.
Ugly map and counters by today's standard but excellent game play of its time and even till now.
Thanks for your fantastic review
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Kenneth Stein
United States
Toledo
Ohio
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Thanks for the memories. Played this at 16 vs. a friend who passed away our senior year. Your piece took me back.
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Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
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Great review! I have the game and have played it a few times, though I prefer Onslaught and Fortress Europa, and I have recently bought The Mighty Endeavor. D-Day does have the virtue of simplicity, which I love, and I have enjoyed the other AH "Classics". The only thing about this one, and I may be misremembering things a bit, was the large number of HQ units in this game that were basically used as cannon fodder to hold the line, which seemed goofy to me. If I recall correctly, later rulesets for the game introduced more realistic uses for the HQ unit, but the early versions of the game had no use for them but to have the players stick them in the front line to die. Am I remembering this correctly?
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Lewis Goldberg
United States
Bonnots Mill
Missouri
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Peso Pete wrote: I still remember being introduced the wargaming when I was eleven years old with this game.
Must be the magic age! I was 11 also, and this was my first wargame. I introduced my 18 year old to wargames when he was 9, and used D-Day also. We still play ... in fact, we have a game of Empire of the Sun set up in the basement right now.
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Wade Hyett
United States
Ranson
West Virginia
All your base are belong to us!
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lgoldberg wrote: Peso Pete wrote: I still remember being introduced the wargaming when I was eleven years old with this game. Must be the magic age! I was 11 also, and this was my first wargame. I introduced my 18 year old to wargames when he was 9, and used D-Day also. We still play ... in fact, we have a game of Empire of the Sun set up in the basement right now.
Thanks for your review. I grew up with the early Avalon Hill stuff myself. Good to see some people are starting to resurrect some of the early years stuff and bring them back into the limelight.
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Johnny Big Bird
United States
Manassas
Virginia
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Peter,
Let me clarify what I meant by saying I did not think a novice could beat an experienced player. I meant a non-wargamer. I believe that a player experienced with Avalon Hill games of the 1960s, should win as the Allies, even if they have not played the game before, since the game is so balanced in favor of the Allies in the 1965 edition. The Allies should win unless they have lots of terrible luck or make lots of blunders. A player unfamiliar with wargames, playing against an experienced German player is likely to make many blunders. If not, they certainly should win as the Allies. Note, I have played this about 20 times as the Allies against experienced players and have never lost. I have only played a couple of times as the German, but have never won.
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Johnny Big Bird
United States
Manassas
Virginia
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Leo,
You are correct. The Allies and Germans both have several headquarters units that are 0-1-4's. No attack strength. The Allies (on the attack) have little use for these since they can only stack two units and a 1 defense factor does not help much. The Germans on the other hand, with a line to defend and (Allied) paratroopers to worry about, can use these efficiently to prevent paratroop drops (since they have zones of control) and to (temporarily) block movement of Allied units.
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Longtime Gamer
United States
Bellows Falls
Vermont
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This was my first AH game. I bought it in the late 60's while I was in the military and stationed in New Jersey. The game quickly proved to be one sided, but most of my opponents were also servicemen and new to this type of gaming, so I let them be the Allies to give them a chance. I lost the game to a damaging spring flood back in the early 80's. If I still owned it today, I doubt I would play it, but like my ancient copies of Midway, Guadalcanal, Anzio and Dispatcher, I wouldn't part with it.
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Frank Jordan
United States
Marlborough
Connecticut
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Say, maybe someone on this forum can answer a mapboard discrepancy for me. On the board I have, which is a '65 edition game, there are small blue letters printed on the hexes that "control" inland ports. On the mapboards that were redone, with beautiful artwork, by John Cooper and Dan Holte, several of those "control hexes" are missing the port letter. Specifically: Rotterdam has no "A"; Amsterdam has no "R", and St. Nazaire has no "N". I know the rules were magnificently redone by Jim Stahler in '77 but I didn't think the mapboard was changed. Control of inland ports would be a lot easier without those pesky little letters (in fortresses no less) so maybe the maps were changed for play balance. Does anyone know what the '77 edition board looks like? Are those control letters really removed from Amsterdam, Rotterdam and St. Nazaire?
And as a further aside down memory lane... I also purchased this game when I was 11. It was 1961 and the game back then cost me $4.98--a princely sum for a kid charging 50 cents to mow a lawn. Anyway, the counters were thick with green "felt" backing and the mapboard had a four hex "lake" between Rotterdam and Antwerp. The lake dried up in later editions,(only the heavy black outline remains) and I think that was the only time the mapboard was really changed. (I don't count the addition of the hex grid numbers or the removal of the substitute corps counters as those changes didn't alter play.)
So, anybody know what the '77 board shows?
Thanks,
--Frank
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Kim Meints
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
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Frank
The '77 board is unchanged from the '65 edition.
Since the '77 rules mention the letters surrounding the ports this was nothing more then a cosmetic choice by them Not to show them in the hexes.
John Cooper's map also has a mistake having 1 port with no supply number shown(I never have really looked but it was mentioned over on Consimworld)
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Frank Jordan
United States
Marlborough
Connecticut
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Hey Kim,
Thanks a lot! I was hoping the map hadn't changed. Of course I'd think differently if I was playing the Allies.
I'll look out for that missing port number on John Cooper's map.
Right now I'm playing a game--first time in over twenty years--on Dan Holt's map using the ZunTzu program. It's a kick! Dan Holt's map has a mistake too: lists only 2 parachute divisions in Le Havre instead of 3. It's a beautiful rendition though.
Thanks again,
Frank
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Kim Meints
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
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My first D-Day was the '65 ed and priced at 7.00(still has the black crayon 7.00 on nth top right corner)
I later got in two '61 editions. One with the 1961A and the other with the 1961B rules(yes two editions of the '61 rules).
I bought John's map but don't have Dan's yet.
Yes they are some nice piece of art work.It's like playing a whole brand new game
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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ostrichjo wrote: Play Balance
Not really. I have found that the Allied player wins most every time with these 1965 edition rules. Two changes from the earlier rules switched the play balance from favoring the Germans to now heavily favoring the Allies. They are the addition of the strategic bombing rules for the Allied player which can be devastating to the German defense if they are effective. They kill at least two German units 2/3 of the time. In addition, allowing the Allied player a second invasion after the eighth turn also turns the tide against the German player. If the first invasion is a more westerly beach, the Germans now must consider keeping much if not most of their forces continuing to guard the more easterly beaches – in case of a second invasion. Realistic to be sure since the Germans did not strike back at the Normandy invasion with all they had, believing the main invasion would be coming later at Pas De Calais.
I don't mean to nitpick what is overall a very good, comprehensive review. However, I did want to give my, contrary, opinion regarding play balance. Many people would agree, and I personally found the same thing initially, the Allies tend to win much more often. However, that is because the 'learning curve' favours the Allies - i.e. with their second invasion and considerable reinforcements, there is much more 'margin for error' in playing them. The 'trick' to learn playing the Germans is that the initial setup, and resulting first invasion, will determine the game. The Allied player gets to review your setup, with perfect intel, before choosing their landing site. If you leave a single weak spot, you will probably lose.
First, South France is not a viable first landing spot, because of the Allied supply range. So it should be undefended. The rest of the beaches need to be defended so as to deny many / any 2-1 or better attacks. Para-proofing is also critical. If the Allied player lands, and isn't lucky with their die rolls, the first invasion should fail. If it succeeds, then the Allies will almost certainly win. If the first invasion fails, then the second will probably too - as the German forces set up initially in Germany (star hexes) can be deployed to reinforce the beach defenses and once the second landing takes place all German forces from other beaches can head towards the landing site.
So the key is, as the Germans, to realise that no defense is really feasible given given a successful Allied first landing. I have seen the 'strategic air' comment (frequently referred to as 'nukes') repeated by many as well. There is a Q&A that states it cannot be used on 'adjacent' (or in the ZoC of, the wording varies and can make a difference, e.g. across rivers, fortresses) units, and thus limits its use. The Germans simply should not be stacking up units away from the front, so attractive targets should not be presented. In any case, as the initial landing will effectively decide the game (see above), 'strategic air' will not really be a major factor.
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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desertfox2004 wrote: ...The only thing about this one, and I may be misremembering things a bit, was the large number of HQ units in this game that were basically used as cannon fodder to hold the line, which seemed goofy to me. If I recall correctly, later rulesets for the game introduced more realistic uses for the HQ unit, but the early versions of the game had no use for them but to have the players stick them in the front line to die. Am I remembering this correctly?
Basically correct. In the '65 version, the HQ's serve no other purpose, and thus they are 'cannon fodder'. The Germans can use them to help para-proof. The Allies use them to plug 'gaps' in their line, once it opens up, in order to concentrate their 'real' combat units. In the '77 version, the Allied HQ's become critical units, as they extend the supply range of ports. Unfortunately there is still no reasonable use for the German HQ's, although the 'para-proofing' role is somewhat diminished due to the change in the paradrop mechanic (in '65 paras cannot drop in a ZoC, but can move whereas in '77 they cannot move but can drop in a ZoC).
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Johnny Big Bird
United States
Manassas
Virginia
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Deadkenny,
True enough if the first invasion utterly fails, the play balance switches to the German, but why attack a beach where such failure is possible? I did not really get into strategy and tactics in the review. No doubt a high risk taking Allied player can easily lose the game. As the Allies, if all of the beaches closest to Germany are too tough to hit, an attack at Normandy or Brittany will succeed. A conservative risk adverse Allied player is hard to beat. Last game I played, the Allies landed at Brittany. Tough to stop the inevitable Allied advance which then works to outflank the Germans and draw forces off of the beaches. If large numbers of Germans are on northern beaches on turn 9, then the second invasion can be delayed. If too few are guarding the beaches on Turn 9 then the second invasion can devastate the Germans. My experience is the only way for a good Allied player to lose is to have very lousy luck with the strategic air attack die rolls.
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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Again, it comes back to learning curve. I'm guessing you've not played against a truly 'optimised' German setup. In addition to the North Sea, Pas de Calais and Le Havre being 2-1 proofed, Normandy should also be a 'death trap' and Brittany as well. Other than South France, which goes undefended, the Bay of Biscay is the only site that should offer any 'opening'. Even then the 'gaps' will be small and that, plus the low reinforcement rate, will likely doom a landing there as well.
The fact is the game is misleading, insofar as it is potentially 50 game turns, yet it will in effect end very quickly. The German initial deployment is the most important 'move' the German player will make in the game, by far. It should be accorded the appropriate time and effort. If you want to give it a shot sometime, I can do my best, or better yet I could get in touch with a real 'expert' who frequents CSW.
The old D-Day '65 was my first hex/counter 'true' wargame, and a longtime favourite. However, once I realised that it was a 'crush them on the beaches or die' situation for the Germans, I went off it a bit. Ultimately I created a D-Day '77 variant that recreates much of the 'feel' of '65, but avoids the 'all-or-nothing' situation with the first invasion.
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Johnny Big Bird
United States
Manassas
Virginia
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Quote: I'm guessing you've not played against a truly 'optimised' German setup.
You are correct. As the Allies I have always found a weakness in the Germans set up and have expolited it/them. As the Germans, I have made all beaches east of Normandy a "death trap" and usually made Normandy very difficult as well. Brittany I have not defended much at all. I had fun anyway, even if the Germans, including myself, did not find the optimized setup.
I noticed there are no strategy and tactics threads for D-Day. Perhaps some of these optimized setups were published in the General in the 1960s and 1970s. If you could point the readers, including me, to one of these, that would be great. I would love to try a more balanced D-Day with a better German set up.
You also may want to consider adding your ideas of how to play the Germans in a Strategy thread for BGG. I would read it with interest.
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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I believe the article which argued that the game is more balanced than many claim, and presents German defense(s) which make it such, was in The General Volume 11 Number 1.
I do not believe there is one 'correct' setup and even in the case of an 'optimised' German defense, it doesn't mean that the Allies have no chance - it simply means that both sides have a decent chance.
If you're interested, I could write up an article for the strategy section. It would be more a 'philosophy', than a hex-by-hex unit placement.
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Johnny Big Bird
United States
Manassas
Virginia
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Thanks for the reference. I will take a look at the General.
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Robert Stuart
United States
Los Alamos
New Mexico
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deadkenny wrote: I believe the article which argued that the game is more balanced than many claim, and presents German defense(s) which make it such, was in The General Volume 11 Number 1.
I do not believe there is one 'correct' setup and even in the case of an 'optimised' German defense, it doesn't mean that the Allies have no chance - it simply means that both sides have a decent chance.
If you're interested, I could write up an article for the strategy section. It would be more a 'philosophy', than a hex-by-hex unit placement.
I'd be interested in this. What I would like to see is a series of rules tweaks which would create a play-balanced game. Since D-Day is (by modern standards) a quick game, we could set up a 'D-Day revival project' in which we test different rules tweaks for a combination of play balance and simplicity.
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Lewis Goldberg
United States
Bonnots Mill
Missouri
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I have long thought that a revamped AH D-Day would be an ideal game for Strategy & Tactics magazine (or World at War).
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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bob_santafe wrote: deadkenny wrote: I believe the article which argued that the game is more balanced than many claim, and presents German defense(s) which make it such, was in The General Volume 11 Number 1.
I do not believe there is one 'correct' setup and even in the case of an 'optimised' German defense, it doesn't mean that the Allies have no chance - it simply means that both sides have a decent chance.
If you're interested, I could write up an article for the strategy section. It would be more a 'philosophy', than a hex-by-hex unit placement. I'd be interested in this. What I would like to see is a series of rules tweaks which would create a play-balanced game. Since D-Day is (by modern standards) a quick game, we could set up a 'D-Day revival project' in which we test different rules tweaks for a combination of play balance and simplicity.
I always liked the 'feel' of D-Day '65 in some ways, while eventually coming to realise that it is flawed in some respects. Given the ambiguities and 'oddities' (e.g. Germans trace supply to the Rhine, NOT Germany itself!) I eventually found that the D-Day '77 rules were the better 'platform' to start with. However, I never cared for the the 'chrome' that they added to it (e.g. Tac Air). I therefore created my own variant, which starts with D-Day '77 rules, and strips away the 'chrome' (i.e. Strategic Movement and Tac Air). It also changes the Carpet Bombing from the rather odd (IMHO) re-roll option to an effect close to what it was in the '65 version (however, the strict limits on its use in '77 are retained, along with the reduction in the total number of times it may be used). I would suggest my variant, posted in the Variant forum, as the 'starting point'.
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