Gregory Curtis
United States
Florida
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Hello everyone.
I just received my copy of Ninjato yesterday and had really been looking forward to it. Both my sons were also looking forward to it as well. I had showed them the Drakkenstrike Components Breakdown video so they were hyped.
A bit of a background...I purchased this game after a bit of review on BGG..we have a collection of about 60 games I guess. Out of all the games I have my wife loves and pretty much only plays 2 games. Stone Age and Age of Empires 3. So...when I saw this game that had some smilar mechanics but a new theme and some new mechanics like the push your luck mechanic etc...I knew I had to buy it.
Now if someone would just do a Sci-fi themed lite empire building game with similar mechanics.
Anyway...we received the game...but my wife was too tired to play last night so it was me and my two sons that are ages 16 and 10.
Early in the game everyone was getting more cards, hitting clan houses for treasure and grabbing a few Envoy's. Rumors were of course ignored a bit early on. My youngest son also hit the Dojo early to get some Snake skills. He ended up getting 2 of the same -2 skill so he was shooting Stealth most the game.
Usually on a first time play my oldest son and I try to talk outloud a bit bout things we see on a game..like strategy decisions etc so we can talk it over and see if we see problems with a game mechanic or whatever. We started discussing early on some of the mechnics of keeping other players in check by having to watch carefully the Envoy cards people buy as well as the new ones filling in each round. If not kept in check someone could really run away with one of the Factions favor.
This sorta happen in the mid rounds where my oldest son had a bit of a hold on Blue and Green...while me and my younger son fought over red a bit. But I was able to get red and then my younger son was able to wrestle control of Blue away from my older son.
Both my sons were a bit more adept at taking the clan house guards down. I believe by game end each of them had about 4 defeated Elite guards while I actually had defeated none at game end. I focused on getting the Envoy bonus Rumor cards (had 2 at endgame) and holding onto Red.
As we approached the last round my younger son had made a bit of a mistake by sitting on too many treasure's (I think he scored 10 points at the end) that he should have spent on Envoy's etc. My older son and I were fairly close on score with my youngest about 30 points or so back.
As we hit the last round a few big events that would shape the end scores were setup. Each of us had control of one of the factions. I had red, youngest had Blue and oldest son had green. The board layout had the following points.... (and there was no way to change it as all but one insignificant enovy were gone)
Green - 6, 8, 2
Blue - none
Red - 6, 5
(Im pretty sure those were the numbers but could have one wrong a bit)
The Green 6 could not be changed as it was a cleared house from my older sons first turn.
My oldest son had to go first and he actually defeated the Green 2 and made it a Blue 2. The purpose being the house had 1 regular guard and one elite...he was able to net 4 points..rather then leaving it and getting 2.
So...my younger son had to get another blue on the board somehow. His best chance was my Red 5. He knew I was planning to hit the Green 8.
So my younger son went for my Red 5 but got bad luck on the draw and got a red and then came down to one card and it just didnt work. My older son was upset as he wanted me to lose it to help him.
So then I attempted the Green 8. I had a decent hand.. 1, 5, 5, 4 and I had the Crane +1/-1. The first guard was a 1 so I went Strength. I actually then used the Crane ability with the 1 to beat the first guard. I then used the 4 to beat a 3. Then a 5 to beat a 2...but then all I had was a 5 to beat a Elite...which ended up being a 6. So I failed.
Ending scores after adding it all up were:
Youngest son: 86
Me: 105
Oldest son: 106
So it really came down to if I had beat that last house I would have won. If my younger son had taken the house of mine and made it a Blue 8...he would have been around 94...and he needed to have spent some of those 10 treasure tokens on Envoys which I think he realized. The rumors selections were bad at end game as we had 3 of the "Dojo multipliers" up on final board. Nobody had more the 2-3 so it wasnt much help.
Anyway...after the game we discussed it a bit. We realized if my wife plays and makes it 4...the game will be a bit more hectic as it wont work out nice where everyone gets first on one of the factions. Someone will be left out. Also..the game does a good job of not letting anyone be much of a runaway leader as the other players will keep them in check. A couple times me and my younger son did things to keep my oldest from getting to dominant on multiple factions etc.
Also...we wondered if a strategy of being aggressive on buying Rumors early like all the Dishonorable House and Rumor bonus cards would be a viable strategy and not fight over the Envoys/Factions in say a four player game? Perhaps.
Anyway...we really enjoyed the game. Ill plan to do a review once I get at least 7-8 more plays. Thanks for reading!!!
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Jeff Dunford
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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Nice session report. I have a question though:
Tekkor wrote: ...
Green - 6, 8, 2
Blue - none
Red - 6, 5
...
The Green 6 could not be changed as it was a cleared house from my older sons first turn.
My oldest son had to go first and he actually defeated the Green 2 and made it a Blue 2. The purpose being the house had 1 regular guard and one elite...he was able to net 4 points..rather then leaving it and getting 2.
So...my younger son had to get another blue on the board somehow. His best chance was my Red 5. He knew I was planning to hit the Green 8.
So as I understand it, going into the last round there were no blue points on the board, and your younger son had control of blue while your older son stood to get second in blue. To me, this means your younger son is almost certainly going to take a rumour card with his first choice, leaving no points for your older son to score for second in blue. When your older son switched Green 2, I'd expect him to change it to Blue 8. This way, he'll get 8 points instead of 0 for being second in blue, which is a net change of +6 (since he had to give up 2 green points to do it). And while that might seem risky, as your younger son could then change another house to Blue 6 and take 14 points in blue instead of the rumour card, it still benefits your older son as he'll get a rumour card (instead of a few points), which is often pretty good. Instead, he changed it to Blue 2, for a net change of 0 (since he gave up the Green 2). That seems strange, and I'm curious why he chose Blue 2.
Then immediately afterwards, your younger son made a move to try to put more blue on the board. This seems counter-intuitive, as any blue he puts on the board is helping your older son. I can only imagine he wanted to switch it to Blue 8 to put a total of 10 points into blue, but that seems marginal at best, as a late-game rumour card can be worth close to 10 (if it completes a set of 3, for instance). Besides, a rumour card is certainly worth more than 2 points, so he's better off taking the rumour and giving 2 points than making the difference smaller (between 10 points and a rumour card).
Am I missing something?
*edit* We've only played a few times ourselves, and we started buying rumour cards around round 5 or 6. At that point, there might be some that add to or complete a set that we've been building during scoring rounds, and at that point they can become more valuable than buying more envoys or attacking houses. In my most recent game, I scored very few points for having envoys of the house colours, instead getting second place a lot of times and getting rumour cards while my opponent took 14-19 points. Those rumour cards turned out to be worth about as much to me as the points did to my opponent.
I need to play more games with more players to see how different the strategy becomes.
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Gregory Curtis
United States
Florida
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OK perhaps I need to go back and read rules one more time but what you said on how points are given seems incorrect. My older son would not get the 8 points for blue being in second on Blue.
When you do the round scoring the first person gets a choice of taking a Rumor card OR taking ALL the points of that color on the board. There is no instant scoring when you put a new faction token down after clearing a house and you do not in any way split the points. You saying he would get the 8 points Blue for being in second on Blue is incorrect.
My older son changed the Green 2 (which he would have got 2 points for as he had Green locked up in first and I think I had second on Green which netted me a Rumor card not any of the 14 points for the 6 and 8) to a Blue 2 and basically gave my Younger son 2 points because the net for himself went from 2 (for the Green 2) to 4 points because he got 2 treasures (for two fight wins over guards) and 2 points for the defeated Elite.
Please point out if I mixed something up there.
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Gregory Curtis
United States
Florida
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Ok second reply. I went back and read your reply again and think I understand what you were saying.
No my youngest son was not going to just take a rumor card for first on Blue. He had one turn and a hand of like 5 cards. He was gong to try to change something and then take the points hopefully. There were only 3 cards on the Rumors. They were all 3 the multipliers for Skills (Dojo).
My older son changed the Green 2 to a Blue 2 also because it was a easier battle. If would have left it...my younger son may have beat that one and changed it to a 8 easily. Instead by him beating it and changing it to a Blue 2 he netted himself a +2 points for the turn and effectively prevented us from changing it to a 8 red or blue to help ourselves.
So that then forced my younger son to attack my Red 5 (and fail) and I attacked the Green 8 (and failed).
Hope that explained it a bit better. Im sure we made a tactical mistake there somewhere. But in all honesty the way it was setup I think my older son made the right choice on his changing of the Green 2.
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Jeff Dunford
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
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Tekkor wrote: Ok second reply. I went back and read your reply again and think I understand what you were saying.
No my youngest son was not going to just take a rumor card for first on Blue. He had one turn and a hand of like 5 cards. He was gong to try to change something and then take the points hopefully. There were only 3 cards on the Rumors. They were all 3 the multipliers for Skills (Dojo).
OK. So your youngest felt that any points he could get for blue would be better than a rumour card. Note that there would be 4 rumour cards (the 3 that hadn't been purchased plus one more) at the beginning of the scoring round. I guess if nobody wanted any of them, then maybe the points were worth it.
Tekkor wrote: My older son changed the Green 2 to a Blue 2 also because it was a easier battle. If would have left it...my younger son may have beat that one and changed it to a 8 easily. Instead by him beating it and changing it to a Blue 2 he netted himself a +2 points for the turn and effectively prevented us from changing it to a 8 red or blue to help ourselves.
I agree that your older son should change the Green 2, but he could probably earn more points (or ensure a rumour card that would help him) by changing it to a higher Blue value. For example, if he changed it to Blue 4 or 5 and no other houses were changed to Blue (which is what ended up happening), then he would either get those 4 or 5 points or a rumour card during the scoring round, depending on which his brother didn't choose. I find that rumour cards are usually worth at least 5 points (e.g. getting a third "master of the secret arts" card with just 3 skills takes you from 6 points (with two such cards) to 12 points at final scoring). By ensuring he gets 4 or 5 points or a rumour card, he will more-or-less match his brother's score for Blue, effectively keeping his brother in check, while simultaneously gaining points relative to you.
Similarly, going back to your younger son's play, I think he would be better off keeping as few points in Blue as possible by not attacking a house, and instead purchasing a rumour card (giving himself a few points), forcing his older brother to accept 2 points during the scoring round for being second in Blue. He would certainly outscore his brother via Blue (even with only 1x "master of the secret arts" and 3 skills, that's 3 points; hopefully he could pick up a second or third of those rumours during the scoring round), and that's pure gain relative to you (his other opponent).
For example, in his last turn, if your youngest son had chosen not to attack a house, and had instead spent some of his treasure to purchase a rumour card, he would not only score immediately for the treasure but he would also guarantee himself another of those same rumour cards during the scoring round (gaining at least 6 points for the rumours on top of the treasures that were cashed in) while giving his brother the measly 2 points.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you will be first in a house and you can't get a lot of points (> 12) in that house colour, then you might be better off putting 0 points in that house because you can get a rumour card while your opponent who was second gets nothing. Conversely, if you're going to be second in a house colour, you want to force your opponent into a marginal decision, so you want the house points to be approximately equal to the value of a rumour card to the player who will score first in that house; that way, they don't gain points relative to you. Ideally, you would prefer if a rumour card was worth more to you than them to put them in a lose-lose scenario.
For example, here's an ideal scenario: Consider that the best rumour card is only worth 6 points to your opponent who will get first in Blue. Meanwhile, you will finish second in Blue, and the best rumour card is worth 10 to you (since you already have some of those). Then ideally you want to make the Blue house worth 8 points. This way, if your opponent takes the points, that leaves you the rumour card, and you will out-score your opponent (10 to 8). Meanwhile, if your opponent takes the rumour card, you can take the points and still out-score them (8 to 6). In either case, you get 2 more points than your opponent. And if there are at least 3 players, both of you would prefer the higher scoring result (10 to 8), as that has the greatest net increase for both of you relative to your other opponents.
The only downside is that the timing isn't perfect for what I just described. During scoring, the order is "first for [colour 1], first for [colour 2], first for [colour 3], second for [colour 1], second for [colour 2], second for [colour 3]", so if there is only 1 copy of that rumour card that would give you 10 points, it might get taken by a player who is first in another colour before you get a chance to take it for being second in Blue.
Anyway... I think you did fine for your first game. I'm just giving you stuff to think about for the next time you play.
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Gregory Curtis
United States
Florida
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Ahhh...thanks for the detailed reply. Some excellent points there.
In retrospect yeah your right. My youngest son would have been better off purchasing a Rumor card even if it was only say 3 points as he would have also gotten the points for the spent treasure which would have been at least 4+ or so. Thats at a minimum 7.
Then he could have grabbed a second Rumor card for 1st on Blue...netting another 3 and left the 2 points for his brother. I see what you were saying.
Good stuff.
Yeah there are some neat underlying strategies going on with this game for sure. One thing my older son commented to me today after thinking about our first game was how he and I both liked this game much better then Stone Age (my wifes favorite game) because there really was not much blocking or dice rolling that hoses you.
Look forward to getting a few more games of this under our belts.
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Jeff Kayati
United States
Worthington
Ohio
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Tekkor wrote: Also...we wondered if a strategy of being aggressive on buying Rumors early like all the Dishonorable House and Rumor bonus cards would be a viable strategy and not fight over the Envoys/Factions in say a four player game? Perhaps.
I've played a number of times and seen a variety of strategies to win the game. There is no doubt in my mind that getting many Rumor cards is one of those strategies
In a four player game, you'll see more of the Rumor (and Envoy) cards. There's just more card churn with another player selecting them. I have seen one player manage to get all six cards of one type, scoring massive points in the endgame.
I've scored 60+ points this way myself, by concentrating on just the Rumor bonus cards. I've played enough now that I think you've got to grab a number of Rumor cards to score decently in the end game, and to keep another player from dominating any one set of cards.
Thanks for the report!
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