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I got this game for Christmas and love it, so much in fact that I've been craving it outside of 4-hour sessions and I found boardgaming-online.com that has the game. Online, come and take your turn as you please, is a great feature for this game so I really like the site but I'm wondering how/if it's really legal?
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Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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Not legal? What law are they breaking?
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David Neumann
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
In life you have to do a lot of things you don't fucking want to do. Many times, that's what the fuck life is... one vile fucking task after another.
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I don't think the site has been trying to hide itself, as there are many threads about it here.
With that in mind, I've always assumed that CGE/Eagle Games and Vlaada are okay with its existence. If the people who own the game aren't telling them to take the site down, then they're not doing anything wrong, in my opinion.
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out4blood wrote: Not legal? What law are they breaking?
They are taking something they didn't make and are using it. I understand you can take concepts of another game, but this is just taking the game, including title, which doesn't seem okay.
I love the site, I'm just asking.
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David Neumann
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
In life you have to do a lot of things you don't fucking want to do. Many times, that's what the fuck life is... one vile fucking task after another.
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Boozie wrote: out4blood wrote: Not legal? What law are they breaking? They are taking something they didn't make and are using it. I understand you can take concepts of another game, but this is just taking the game, including title, which doesn't seem okay. I love the site, I'm just asking.
True, but they're not making money off of it other than donations. When I created the VASSAL module for TTA, I contacted Eagle Games and they were more than happy to have me create the module and post it.
Maybe the creator of the BGO site contacted the publishers and they gave him the green light to proceed?
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Brian Schroth
United States
Middletown
Connecticut
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Boozie wrote: out4blood wrote: Not legal? What law are they breaking? They are taking something they didn't make and are using it. I understand you can take concepts of another game, but this is just taking the game, including title, which doesn't seem okay. I love the site, I'm just asking.
"Taking something you didn't make and using it" is not illegal. For instance, right not you are taking the English language, which you did not make, and using it.
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BagelManB wrote:
"Taking something you didn't make and using it" is not illegal. For instance, right not you are taking the English language, which you did not make, and using it.
Is the implication of a copyright issue not obvious? I'm not trying to pick a fight with BGO fanboys, so lets try to stop sidestepping what we're talking about.
It's obviously fine with explicit permission, but barring that I wouldn't think so in its current state with copied art and card descriptions.
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David Neumann
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
In life you have to do a lot of things you don't fucking want to do. Many times, that's what the fuck life is... one vile fucking task after another.
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Boozie wrote:
Is the implication of a copyright issue not obvious? I'm not trying to pick a fight with BGO fanboys, so lets try to stop sidestepping what we're talking about.
It's obviously fine with explicit permission, but barring that I wouldn't think so in its current state with copied art and card descriptions.
Why are you assuming that they don't have explicit permission?
Also, the art is not copied. The art on BGO is .jpgs of the actual places or people (or statues, paintings, etc.). That is nothing like the card art in the actual game.
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Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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Boozie wrote: BagelManB wrote:
"Taking something you didn't make and using it" is not illegal. For instance, right not you are taking the English language, which you did not make, and using it.
Is the implication of a copyright issue not obvious?
No, it's not. They aren't using the game art. They aren't copying the game rules text - rules aren't even posted anywhere. They are using some images from somewhere, but it's not clear whether the use violates anyone's rights.
You could make an argument over trademark confusion, as that's less clear.
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Eric Phillips
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
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Chvatil and his distributors have probably lost some sales to people who have decided they don't need to buy a physical copy if they can play it for free online, but I would guess that they've gained a lot more sales than they have lost, due to people who never had a chance to play it seriously before (due to cost or lack of time or lack of people to play it with), who get hooked on BGO and say, "I just have to own this game."
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Brian Schroth
United States
Middletown
Connecticut
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Boozie wrote: BagelManB wrote:
"Taking something you didn't make and using it" is not illegal. For instance, right not you are taking the English language, which you did not make, and using it.
Is the implication of a copyright issue not obvious? I'm not trying to pick a fight with BGO fanboys, so lets try to stop sidestepping what we're talking about. It's obviously fine with explicit permission, but barring that I wouldn't think so in its current state with copied art and card descriptions.
My hope was to get you to think critically on the subject. OK, so taking something you didn't make and using it isn't necessarily illegal. In what cases is it illegal? When the thing being taken is covered by copyright. What parts of TTA are covered by copyright, and what parts are not? Does BGO copy those parts that are covered by copyright, or not? These are the questions you should be asking. If it is copying things covered by copyright, is it doing so in ways that are allowed (i.e. fair use)? Does it have explicit or implicit permission from the copyright holders?
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BagelManB wrote:
My hope was to get you to think critically on the subject. OK, so taking something you didn't make and using it isn't necessarily illegal. In what cases is it illegal? When the thing being taken is covered by copyright. What parts of TTA are covered by copyright, and what parts are not? Does BGO copy those parts that are covered by copyright, or not? These are the questions you should be asking. If it is copying things covered by copyright, is it doing so in ways that are allowed (i.e. fair use)? Does it have explicit or implicit permission from the copyright holders?
And yet these questions still go unanswered.
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Chris Berger
United States
Volo
Illinois
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Boozie wrote: And yet these questions still go unanswered.
BGO is legal. Does that answer your question?
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Brian Schroth
United States
Middletown
Connecticut
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Boozie wrote: BagelManB wrote:
My hope was to get you to think critically on the subject. OK, so taking something you didn't make and using it isn't necessarily illegal. In what cases is it illegal? When the thing being taken is covered by copyright. What parts of TTA are covered by copyright, and what parts are not? Does BGO copy those parts that are covered by copyright, or not? These are the questions you should be asking. If it is copying things covered by copyright, is it doing so in ways that are allowed (i.e. fair use)? Does it have explicit or implicit permission from the copyright holders?
And yet these questions still go unanswered.
What parts of TTA are covered by copyright, and what parts are not?
Like all board games, the game itself is not covered by copyright. Only the artwork and the written elements (the rulebook) are.
Does BGO copy those parts that are covered by copyright, or not?
BGO uses its own artwork for just about everything. I have seen the thumbnail of the TTA box cover on there, but the rest of the art is not used. The rules aren't on BGO, so they're not an issue either.
The iconography and text of cards is copied, which could theoretically be fair use (but probably isn't).
Does it have explicit or implicit permission from the copyright holders?
We can't know if there's explicit permission, but it's clear that there is implicit permission. BGO is not even remotely secret, and the copyright holders are well aware of its existence. They implicitly approve of it by not trying to stop it. Which is not a surprise, because BGO is probably a huge part of why TTA has been so successful. Without BGO it probably wouldn't even be in the top 10 here on BGG.
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Eric Phillips
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
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BagelManB wrote: Without BGO it probably wouldn't even be in the top 10 here on BGG.
TTA was #4 on the Big Board before BGO. I think BGO can probably take credit for its recent forays into higher positions, though.
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In this case they skirt around the artwork, but there are many links to Online games at BGO that do use the original artwork. Personally, I would be weary of this as a site admin. The PR backlash would probably hurt these small game companies more than anything. Still, I imagine someone like Fantasy Flight would send cease and desist order quite quickly.
Also, many of these games are releasing PC,iOS, and Andriod counterparts. These online games are in direct competition with digital distribution games.
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David Neumann
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
In life you have to do a lot of things you don't fucking want to do. Many times, that's what the fuck life is... one vile fucking task after another.
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sneth wrote: there are many Online games at BGO that do use the original artwork.
The only game at BGO is Through the Ages, and it doesn't use the original artwork.
Am I missing something here?
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Steve Bachman
United States
Colonie
New York
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Neumannium wrote: sneth wrote: there are many Online games at BGO that do use the original artwork. The only game at BGO is Through the Ages, and it doesn't use the original artwork. Am I missing something here?
I'm thinking he's mixing up his acronyms and was actually talking about GTO.
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Chris Berger
United States
Volo
Illinois
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GameTable Online has explicit permissions and contracts for all of their games.
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