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Subject: Is capitalism in danger? rss

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Daniel Edwards
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slatersteven wrote:
Fwing wrote:
eikka wrote:
Related to the OP. I watched a video lecture by Detlev Schlichter (Austrian economist) who asserts that capitalism is not at fault. Instead he blames the government issued fiat currency systems that drive the credit based boom-bust cycles together with the elasticity given by the commercial banks' fractional reserve banking system.


He's more or less right - but the fiat currency isn't "issued" by the government. It's created by banks when they issue debt.

Governments need to retake control of money creation. The fact that they've lose control in the first place I put down to incompetence/believing the economists.


Well why not ban credit cards and unsecured laons?


Because this is wrong.

Banks don't create money when they issue debt. A credit corresponds with a debit and they can't lend out what they don't have. Retail banks still make their money out of earning more on their deposits (and fees) than they pay in interest. Investment banks well invest.

Increasing the money supply remains the purview of central banks (and sometimes governments).
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steven slater
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myopia wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Fwing wrote:
eikka wrote:
Related to the OP. I watched a video lecture by Detlev Schlichter (Austrian economist) who asserts that capitalism is not at fault. Instead he blames the government issued fiat currency systems that drive the credit based boom-bust cycles together with the elasticity given by the commercial banks' fractional reserve banking system.


He's more or less right - but the fiat currency isn't "issued" by the government. It's created by banks when they issue debt.

Governments need to retake control of money creation. The fact that they've lose control in the first place I put down to incompetence/believing the economists.


Well why not ban credit cards and unsecured laons?


Because this is wrong.

Banks don't create money when they issue debt. A credit corresponds with a debit and they can't lend out what they don't have. Retail banks still make their money out of earning more on their deposits (and fees) than they pay in interest. Investment banks well invest.

Increasing the money supply remains the purview of central banks (and sometimes governments).


Forgive me but I seem to recall that one of teh reason for the recetn banking crisis was not enough capital.
 
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Daniel Edwards
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Bojan explained it above but at the risk of oversimplification.

Money doesn't equal money supply.

When a central bank prints more cash it increases money.

Fractional reserve banking increases the money supply not money (the number of credits and matching debits increases but not the net balance). It should be pretty evident that the first might make a loaf of bread more expensive while the second doesn't necessarily.

Fractional reserve banking is part of the grease that keeps modern economies working but does raise the "bank run" problem.

Say I'm a bank and I've kept 5% of deposits in my vault and lent out 95%. Normally this works fine but if every depositor turns up at 9am and wants their money I'm in trouble (even though I can be perfectly solvent). I can't turf out all the people I've issued home loans to, resell their houses and pay the money back even if I wanted to. If I can't borrow the money from other banks then I need to turn to the lender of last resort (the central bank). But even if they loan me money they haven't necessarily created it (unless they printed it).

In the financial crisis the problem wasn't really capital (for every loss theres a gain to someone else after all) at least in aggregate. Some banks were broke of course but the real danger was that liquidity froze up. Noone was lending money to anyone partly because banks wanted to hold on to their cash and partly because noone was really sure who was a bad credit risk until the dust settled. Without liquidity even solvent banks were at risk and everyone of those that fell over would make the problem worse and worse. This is where the "we should have let the market sort it out" sentiments become fantastical.

To be frank there real problem here is that some of the wikipedia articles cited are well pretty dodgy. Statements such as "Some people think...." without even trying to state both sides of the argument are a bit of a give away I find.

Central banks can certainly cripple an economy. Thats the very reason that many banks are independant. They can get it wrong sometimes but the Austrian fringes would rather steam roll the lot in order to align things with their particular idealogical approach. I equate this with the arm cutting example above but some will obviously disagree.
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  • Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:14 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:09 pm
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Clay
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bramadan wrote:
The Message wrote:

Assuming there is such a thing as a free agent being a serf doesn't take your agency away from you. It makes it very difficult to exercise that agency in many ways without running into trouble with others, but that's not the same thing at all.

So maybe you're going to say I'm being too literal and obviously you meant that the system allows you to legally "act with agency in pursuit of one's own goals as opposed to being used as a tool in pursuit of the goals of another or some group," and that would be a reasonable response if that's actually what you meant, but that version still isn't without flaws. Can you conceive of a system that both has laws and coexists with your definition of freedom for every possible individual? Doubtful. After all, the very nature of laws is to restrict, so it's inevitable that someone will have a goal that isn't legally permitted within the system. If Bill's goal is to murder everyone he sees he's going to have a hell of a time getting through the day in either of our nations, and indeed you might have to say that Bill doesn't have freedom in those nations under the amended definition from the start of this paragraph.

I still think these are issues with your current definition in that you probably don't want to say some of these things. Or maybe you do, in which case I'll shut right up and we can continue to disagree about what "freedom" means in peace.


I grant you I was not particularly technical but I thought that what I mean will come through.

Let us try again while wearing my philosophy hat:

A "free" society is one which treats individuals as autonomous agents capable of forming their own goals and does not legally subordinate goals of any one individual to those of another (or a group) except insofar as to prevent individuals from interfering with other's pursue of their goals.

In other words - in a free society you can not be a slaver - even if you do not require state's support in hunting down your escaped slaves - because state has a legitimate mandate to protect the ability of your would-be-slaves to pursue their own goals.



I'll admit, that's a surprisingly good definition for an abstract concept. Not that I won't attempt to crack it later but there don't appear to be any major weaknesses on first reading. Props for that, really.

Of course, it's still open to many, many systems that aren't capitalistic. For one thing, you say nothing of economics in there. There's absolutely no reason a country couldn't meet your definition of freedom and not even have a currency or any interest in trade. That's probably not good from where you're sitting, right? "Opt-in" varieties of communism where individuals receive benefits only to the degree that they accept responsibilities would technically count as well, and that's no more "become another's tool" than getting a job in a capitalist system.
 
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Mika R.
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myopia wrote:
In the financial crisis the problem wasn't really capital (for every loss theres a gain to someone else after all) at least in aggregate. Some banks were broke of course but the real danger was that liquidity froze up. Noone was lending money to anyone partly because banks wanted to hold on to their cash and partly because noone was really sure who was a bad credit risk until the dust settled. Without liquidity even solvent banks were at risk and everyone of those that fell over would make the problem worse and worse. This is where the "we should have let the market sort it out" sentiments become fantastical.


Ok, I seem to get it now (thanks to lengthy explaining by bramadan and you):

Central banks act as a last resort lender in a time of liquidity crisis but those short term loans are not made up money since the banks have to introduce some sort of collateral to get the money from the central bank and pay it back.

-------
I found a good overview article of what happened between Fed and the big banks in the 2008 liquidity crisis:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-21/wall-street-aristoc...

1.2 Trillion last resort lending:
Quote:
Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke’s unprecedented effort to keep the economy from plunging into depression included lending banks and other companies as much as $1.2 trillion of public money, about the same amount U.S. homeowners currently owe on 6.5 million delinquent and foreclosed mortgages. The largest borrower, Morgan Stanley (MS), got as much as $107.3 billion, while Citigroup took $99.5 billion and Bank of America $91.4 billion, according to a Bloomberg News compilation of data obtained through Freedom of Information Act requests, months of litigation and an act of Congress.

“These are all whopping numbers,” said Robert Litan, a former Justice Department official who in the 1990s served on a commission probing the causes of the savings and loan crisis. “You’re talking about the aristocracy of American finance going down the tubes without the federal money.”


Lending was huge but not without collateral:
Quote:
In most cases, the Fed demanded collateral for its loans -- Treasuries or corporate bonds and mortgage bonds that could be seized and sold if the money wasn’t repaid. That meant the central bank’s main risk was that collateral pledged by banks that collapsed would be worth less than the amount borrowed.


Nevertheless, the operation introduced moral hazard to the playing field:
Quote:
Herring, the University of Pennsylvania professor, said some banks may have used the program to maximize profits by borrowing “from the cheapest source, because this was supposed to be secret and never revealed.”

Whether banks needed the Fed’s money for survival or used it because it offered advantageous rates, the central bank’s lender-of-last-resort role amounts to a free insurance policy for banks guaranteeing the arrival of funds in a disaster, Herring said.

An IMF report last October said regulators should consider charging banks for the right to access central bank funds.

“The extent of official intervention is clear evidence that systemic liquidity risks were under-recognized and mispriced by both the private and public sectors,” the IMF said in a separate report in April.

Access to Fed backup support “leads you to subject yourself to greater risks,” Herring said. “If it’s not there, you’re not going to take the risks that would put you in trouble and require you to have access to that kind of funding.”



We shall see how the monetary system copes with all instabilities & hazards now baked into the global finance system. Perhaps the endgame of fiat has really begun?
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  • Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:40 pm (Total Number of Edits: 3)
  • Posted Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:28 pm
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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The Message wrote:
bramadan wrote:
The Message wrote:

Assuming there is such a thing as a free agent being a serf doesn't take your agency away from you. It makes it very difficult to exercise that agency in many ways without running into trouble with others, but that's not the same thing at all.

So maybe you're going to say I'm being too literal and obviously you meant that the system allows you to legally "act with agency in pursuit of one's own goals as opposed to being used as a tool in pursuit of the goals of another or some group," and that would be a reasonable response if that's actually what you meant, but that version still isn't without flaws. Can you conceive of a system that both has laws and coexists with your definition of freedom for every possible individual? Doubtful. After all, the very nature of laws is to restrict, so it's inevitable that someone will have a goal that isn't legally permitted within the system. If Bill's goal is to murder everyone he sees he's going to have a hell of a time getting through the day in either of our nations, and indeed you might have to say that Bill doesn't have freedom in those nations under the amended definition from the start of this paragraph.

I still think these are issues with your current definition in that you probably don't want to say some of these things. Or maybe you do, in which case I'll shut right up and we can continue to disagree about what "freedom" means in peace.


I grant you I was not particularly technical but I thought that what I mean will come through.

Let us try again while wearing my philosophy hat:

A "free" society is one which treats individuals as autonomous agents capable of forming their own goals and does not legally subordinate goals of any one individual to those of another (or a group) except insofar as to prevent individuals from interfering with other's pursue of their goals.

In other words - in a free society you can not be a slaver - even if you do not require state's support in hunting down your escaped slaves - because state has a legitimate mandate to protect the ability of your would-be-slaves to pursue their own goals.



I'll admit, that's a surprisingly good definition for an abstract concept. Not that I won't attempt to crack it later but there don't appear to be any major weaknesses on first reading. Props for that, really.

Of course, it's still open to many, many systems that aren't capitalistic. For one thing, you say nothing of economics in there. There's absolutely no reason a country couldn't meet your definition of freedom and not even have a currency or any interest in trade. That's probably not good from where you're sitting, right? "Opt-in" varieties of communism where individuals receive benefits only to the degree that they accept responsibilities would technically count as well, and that's no more "become another's tool" than getting a job in a capitalist system.


They key link between capitalism and freedom is in ownership of property.

Skirting for a moment ownership of land - idea is that if we have system which does not hinder people's pursuit of goals we must allow them to retain (substantial) control over the results of their labour. If I build a house (because I want to live in it on my own) "society" can not demand that I now house 5 more people with me just because they are homeless.
To do so would be to treat my labour as means towards someone else's goals (homeless, government, do-gooders...).

Likewise if I build a house for you in exchange for your making a computer for me - we are both pursuing our goals without harming anyone else's ability do do likewise and free society has no business interfering with us.

Note that there is nothing here that *forces* people in free society to own property. I can equally choose - of my own free will - to enter a commune or to devote all my labour to the well-being of others. Those are all legitimate choices that a free society should and would respect. Key point is that in a free society those who wish to use their labour to amass property should be allowed to do so as a part of the general societal rules on non-interference with other people's goals.

Likewise, free society can and should persecute fraud. In a same way that a thief, slaver or a murdered acts to interfere with others pursuing their goals - so does fraudster. Persecution of frauds is logically equivalent to the enforcement of good-faith contracts.

Once you have freedom to own property and enforcement of contracts you have all the necessary conditions for capitalism.

Once again, lots of people may choose not to utilize trappings of capitalism - you could have parts of the society that - on voluntary basis - operate on the communal (or any other) principles - but that is the case in our society. There is nothing stopping you from forming a commune that can get as large as a country if you convince sufficient number of people to join.
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Mika R.
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Some more words about the state of western capitalism and economic policies, this time from William H. Gross, managing director of PIMCO. (Emphasis mine)

Quote:
...zero-bound interest rates do not always and necessarily force investors to take more risk by purchasing stocks or real estate, to cite the classic central bank thesis. First of all, when rational or irrational fear persuades an investor to be more concerned about the return of her money than on her money then liquidity can be trapped in a mattress, a bank account or a five basis point Treasury bill. But that commonsensical observation is well known to Fed policymakers, economic historians and certainly citizens on Main Street.

What perhaps is not so often recognized is that liquidity can be trapped by the “price” of credit, in addition to its “risk.” Capitalism depends on risk-taking in several forms. Developers, homeowners, entrepreneurs of all shapes and sizes epitomize the riskiness of business building via equity and credit risk extension. But modern capitalism is dependent as well on maturity extension in credit markets. No venture, aside from one financed with 100% owners’ capital, could survive on credit or loans that matured or were callable overnight. Buildings, utilities and homes require 20- and 30-year loan commitments to smooth and justify their returns. Because this is so, lenders require a yield premium, expressed as a positively sloped yield curve, to make the extended loan. A flat yield curve, in contrast, is a disincentive for lenders to lend unless there is sufficient downside room for yields to fall and provide bond market capital gains. This nominal or even real interest rate “margin” is why prior cyclical periods of curve flatness or even inversion have been successfully followed by economic expansions. Intermediate and long rates – even though flat and equal to a short-term policy rate – have had room to fall, and credit therefore has not been trapped by “price.”

When all yields approach the zero-bound, however, as in Japan for the past 10 years, and now in the U.S. and selected “clean dirty shirt” sovereigns, then the dynamics may change. Money can become less liquid and frozen by “price” in addition to the classic liquidity trap explained by “risk.”


Even if nodding in agreement, an observer might immediately comment that today’s yield curve is anything but flat and that might be true. Most short to intermediate Treasury yields, however, are dangerously close to the zero-bound which imply little if any room to fall: no margin, no air underneath those bond yields and therefore limited, if any, price appreciation. What incentive does a bank have to buy two-year Treasuries at 20 basis points when they can park overnight reserves with the Fed at 25? What incentives do investment managers or even individual investors have to take price risk with a five-, 10- or 30-year Treasury when there are multiples of downside price risk compared to appreciation? At 75 basis points, a five-year Treasury can only rationally appreciate by two more points, but theoretically can go down by an unlimited amount. Duration risk and flatness at the zero-bound, to make the simple point, can freeze and trap liquidity by convincing investors to hold cash as opposed to extend credit.

Where else can one go, however? We can’t put $100 trillion of credit in a system-wide mattress, can we? Of course not, but we can move in that direction by delevering and refusing to extend maturities and duration. Recent central bank behavior, including that of the U.S. Fed, provides assurances that short and intermediate yields will not change, and therefore bond prices are not likely threatened on the downside. Still, zero-bound money may kill as opposed to create credit. Developed economies where these low yields reside may suffer accordingly. It may as well, induce inflationary distortions that give a rise to commodities and gold as store of value alternatives when there is little value left in paper.

Where does credit go when it dies? It goes back to where it came from. It delevers, it slows and inhibits economic growth, and it turns economic theory upside down, ultimately challenging the wisdom of policymakers. We’ll all be making this up as we go along for what may seem like an eternity. A 30-50 year virtuous cycle of credit expansion which has produced outsize paranormal returns for financial assets – bonds, stocks, real estate and commodities alike – is now delevering because of excessive “risk” and the “price” of money at the zero-bound. We are witnessing the death of abundance and the borning of austerity, for what may be a long, long time.


http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Life-and-Death-Propos...#
 
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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eikka wrote:
Some more words about the state of western capitalism and economic policies, this time from William H. Gross, managing director of PIMCO. (Emphasis mine)

Quote:
...zero-bound interest rates do not always and necessarily force investors to take more risk by purchasing stocks or real estate, to cite the classic central bank thesis. First of all, when rational or irrational fear persuades an investor to be more concerned about the return of her money than on her money then liquidity can be trapped in a mattress, a bank account or a five basis point Treasury bill. But that commonsensical observation is well known to Fed policymakers, economic historians and certainly citizens on Main Street.

What perhaps is not so often recognized is that liquidity can be trapped by the “price” of credit, in addition to its “risk.” Capitalism depends on risk-taking in several forms. Developers, homeowners, entrepreneurs of all shapes and sizes epitomize the riskiness of business building via equity and credit risk extension. But modern capitalism is dependent as well on maturity extension in credit markets. No venture, aside from one financed with 100% owners’ capital, could survive on credit or loans that matured or were callable overnight. Buildings, utilities and homes require 20- and 30-year loan commitments to smooth and justify their returns. Because this is so, lenders require a yield premium, expressed as a positively sloped yield curve, to make the extended loan. A flat yield curve, in contrast, is a disincentive for lenders to lend unless there is sufficient downside room for yields to fall and provide bond market capital gains. This nominal or even real interest rate “margin” is why prior cyclical periods of curve flatness or even inversion have been successfully followed by economic expansions. Intermediate and long rates – even though flat and equal to a short-term policy rate – have had room to fall, and credit therefore has not been trapped by “price.”

When all yields approach the zero-bound, however, as in Japan for the past 10 years, and now in the U.S. and selected “clean dirty shirt” sovereigns, then the dynamics may change. Money can become less liquid and frozen by “price” in addition to the classic liquidity trap explained by “risk.”


Even if nodding in agreement, an observer might immediately comment that today’s yield curve is anything but flat and that might be true. Most short to intermediate Treasury yields, however, are dangerously close to the zero-bound which imply little if any room to fall: no margin, no air underneath those bond yields and therefore limited, if any, price appreciation. What incentive does a bank have to buy two-year Treasuries at 20 basis points when they can park overnight reserves with the Fed at 25? What incentives do investment managers or even individual investors have to take price risk with a five-, 10- or 30-year Treasury when there are multiples of downside price risk compared to appreciation? At 75 basis points, a five-year Treasury can only rationally appreciate by two more points, but theoretically can go down by an unlimited amount. Duration risk and flatness at the zero-bound, to make the simple point, can freeze and trap liquidity by convincing investors to hold cash as opposed to extend credit.

Where else can one go, however? We can’t put $100 trillion of credit in a system-wide mattress, can we? Of course not, but we can move in that direction by delevering and refusing to extend maturities and duration. Recent central bank behavior, including that of the U.S. Fed, provides assurances that short and intermediate yields will not change, and therefore bond prices are not likely threatened on the downside. Still, zero-bound money may kill as opposed to create credit. Developed economies where these low yields reside may suffer accordingly. It may as well, induce inflationary distortions that give a rise to commodities and gold as store of value alternatives when there is little value left in paper.

Where does credit go when it dies? It goes back to where it came from. It delevers, it slows and inhibits economic growth, and it turns economic theory upside down, ultimately challenging the wisdom of policymakers. We’ll all be making this up as we go along for what may seem like an eternity. A 30-50 year virtuous cycle of credit expansion which has produced outsize paranormal returns for financial assets – bonds, stocks, real estate and commodities alike – is now delevering because of excessive “risk” and the “price” of money at the zero-bound. We are witnessing the death of abundance and the borning of austerity, for what may be a long, long time.


http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Life-and-Death-Propos...#


I agree with almost everything in this analysis.
Low credit rates and "abundant money" policy is single worst mistake made by the central banks world over and will carry extremely high cost.
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Mika R.
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bramadan wrote:
I agree with almost everything in this analysis.
Low credit rates and "abundant money" policy is single worst mistake made by the central banks world over and will carry extremely high cost.


Some say that this policy was the only reasonable option to prevent deep depression. If you were central banker, what would you have done differently when trust in Finance broke down in 2008?
 
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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eikka wrote:
bramadan wrote:
I agree with almost everything in this analysis.
Low credit rates and "abundant money" policy is single worst mistake made by the central banks world over and will carry extremely high cost.


Some say that this policy was the only reasonable option to prevent deep depression. If you were central banker, what would you have done differently when trust in Finance broke down in 2008?


Well...
Firstly, the ultra-cheap money is a problem going on longer then 2008. I do think (and I think I even posted to that effect back then) that Greenspan's low-rates and market coddling were a mistake as early as 2001.
If the rates remained higher back then - lots of ridiculous credit would have never happened and US consumers would have seen more benefit of the rise of Chinese manufacturing (through consumer price deflation).

That said, in 2008 there were three principal tasks that the government (and central banks) needed to accomplish. One was to avoid the catastrophic systemic failure of the banking system. Second was to maintain the flow of credit to viable businesses which needed them. Third was to facilitate the beginning of massive de-leveraging of both businesses and consumers both of whom were burdened by the borderline-unsustainable debt.

They managed the first of these tasks moderately well - although I would have liked to see more shareholders wiped out (partially or fully) and more bond-holders suffering modest haircuts - if for no other reasons then to make sure to lessen the moral hazard associated with the (needed) government intervention. This could have been accomplished by higher overnight rates coupled with the streamlined receivership process for the terminally illiquid banks instead of the ad-hoc (and necessarily somewhat corrupt) process of finding corporate suitors.

The later two tasks - I would claim - they bungled fairly miserably. Desipite nearly zero rates, credit to businesses took forever to recover (and is still struggling) - mostly, I believe for the reasons discussed in the analysis you linked. De-leveraging happened (although much less in Canada to my great worry) but in a haphazard way - mostly as a consequence of the disappearing credit.

Rather then offering ultra-cheap credit to banks Fed could have increased overnight spread - asking steadily more and more for the emergency loans but offering next to nothing (or virtually nothing) for the deposits with them. What this policy would have achieved would be to re-create market in inter-bank loans by making it worthwhile for liquid banks to actually do check up solvency of their peers and offer them loans (expensively, but less so then the central bank). This could have been accompanied for maximum effect with more comprehensive asset disclosure rules, but it is possible to argue that there would not have been time to get such a law in place in time for it to do most good.

More banks would have failed then did in reality but the survivors would have been much more liquid and motivated to move the money into real economy. Consumer loans would have gone up in price (helping de-leveraging) but not as much as if the entire overnight rate was hiked up, because those who did have cash would have no more motivation to leave it with fed then they did under the scenario that actually transpired (they would actually have less motivation because future yield curve would have had space underneath it and therefore there would have been point in speculating on long-term loans). Scenario would have felt more painful at the time (though I believe not *much* more painful) but would have left the economy in much better shape then it is now.
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Víctor Pérez
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bramadan wrote:
The Message wrote:
bramadan wrote:
The Message wrote:

Assuming there is such a thing as a free agent being a serf doesn't take your agency away from you. It makes it very difficult to exercise that agency in many ways without running into trouble with others, but that's not the same thing at all.

So maybe you're going to say I'm being too literal and obviously you meant that the system allows you to legally "act with agency in pursuit of one's own goals as opposed to being used as a tool in pursuit of the goals of another or some group," and that would be a reasonable response if that's actually what you meant, but that version still isn't without flaws. Can you conceive of a system that both has laws and coexists with your definition of freedom for every possible individual? Doubtful. After all, the very nature of laws is to restrict, so it's inevitable that someone will have a goal that isn't legally permitted within the system. If Bill's goal is to murder everyone he sees he's going to have a hell of a time getting through the day in either of our nations, and indeed you might have to say that Bill doesn't have freedom in those nations under the amended definition from the start of this paragraph.

I still think these are issues with your current definition in that you probably don't want to say some of these things. Or maybe you do, in which case I'll shut right up and we can continue to disagree about what "freedom" means in peace.


I grant you I was not particularly technical but I thought that what I mean will come through.

Let us try again while wearing my philosophy hat:

A "free" society is one which treats individuals as autonomous agents capable of forming their own goals and does not legally subordinate goals of any one individual to those of another (or a group) except insofar as to prevent individuals from interfering with other's pursue of their goals.

In other words - in a free society you can not be a slaver - even if you do not require state's support in hunting down your escaped slaves - because state has a legitimate mandate to protect the ability of your would-be-slaves to pursue their own goals.



I'll admit, that's a surprisingly good definition for an abstract concept. Not that I won't attempt to crack it later but there don't appear to be any major weaknesses on first reading. Props for that, really.

Of course, it's still open to many, many systems that aren't capitalistic. For one thing, you say nothing of economics in there. There's absolutely no reason a country couldn't meet your definition of freedom and not even have a currency or any interest in trade. That's probably not good from where you're sitting, right? "Opt-in" varieties of communism where individuals receive benefits only to the degree that they accept responsibilities would technically count as well, and that's no more "become another's tool" than getting a job in a capitalist system.


They key link between capitalism and freedom is in ownership of property.

Skirting for a moment ownership of land - idea is that if we have system which does not hinder people's pursuit of goals we must allow them to retain (substantial) control over the results of their labour. If I build a house (because I want to live in it on my own) "society" can not demand that I now house 5 more people with me just because they are homeless.
To do so would be to treat my labour as means towards someone else's goals (homeless, government, do-gooders...).

Likewise if I build a house for you in exchange for your making a computer for me - we are both pursuing our goals without harming anyone else's ability do do likewise and free society has no business interfering with us.

Note that there is nothing here that *forces* people in free society to own property. I can equally choose - of my own free will - to enter a commune or to devote all my labour to the well-being of others. Those are all legitimate choices that a free society should and would respect. Key point is that in a free society those who wish to use their labour to amass property should be allowed to do so as a part of the general societal rules on non-interference with other people's goals.

Likewise, free society can and should persecute fraud. In a same way that a thief, slaver or a murdered acts to interfere with others pursuing their goals - so does fraudster. Persecution of frauds is logically equivalent to the enforcement of good-faith contracts.

Once you have freedom to own property and enforcement of contracts you have all the necessary conditions for capitalism.


Private property and capitalism are also foundational to alternate political systems, including fascism. Oligarchic landowner dictatorships, post-colonial cleptocracies or fascist corporatism demonstrate that private property and capitalism, by themselves, are not sufficient to produce freedom, and that at the very least additional political conditions have to exist.
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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HeinzGuderian wrote:
bramadan wrote:
The Message wrote:
bramadan wrote:
The Message wrote:

Assuming there is such a thing as a free agent being a serf doesn't take your agency away from you. It makes it very difficult to exercise that agency in many ways without running into trouble with others, but that's not the same thing at all.

So maybe you're going to say I'm being too literal and obviously you meant that the system allows you to legally "act with agency in pursuit of one's own goals as opposed to being used as a tool in pursuit of the goals of another or some group," and that would be a reasonable response if that's actually what you meant, but that version still isn't without flaws. Can you conceive of a system that both has laws and coexists with your definition of freedom for every possible individual? Doubtful. After all, the very nature of laws is to restrict, so it's inevitable that someone will have a goal that isn't legally permitted within the system. If Bill's goal is to murder everyone he sees he's going to have a hell of a time getting through the day in either of our nations, and indeed you might have to say that Bill doesn't have freedom in those nations under the amended definition from the start of this paragraph.

I still think these are issues with your current definition in that you probably don't want to say some of these things. Or maybe you do, in which case I'll shut right up and we can continue to disagree about what "freedom" means in peace.


I grant you I was not particularly technical but I thought that what I mean will come through.

Let us try again while wearing my philosophy hat:

A "free" society is one which treats individuals as autonomous agents capable of forming their own goals and does not legally subordinate goals of any one individual to those of another (or a group) except insofar as to prevent individuals from interfering with other's pursue of their goals.

In other words - in a free society you can not be a slaver - even if you do not require state's support in hunting down your escaped slaves - because state has a legitimate mandate to protect the ability of your would-be-slaves to pursue their own goals.



I'll admit, that's a surprisingly good definition for an abstract concept. Not that I won't attempt to crack it later but there don't appear to be any major weaknesses on first reading. Props for that, really.

Of course, it's still open to many, many systems that aren't capitalistic. For one thing, you say nothing of economics in there. There's absolutely no reason a country couldn't meet your definition of freedom and not even have a currency or any interest in trade. That's probably not good from where you're sitting, right? "Opt-in" varieties of communism where individuals receive benefits only to the degree that they accept responsibilities would technically count as well, and that's no more "become another's tool" than getting a job in a capitalist system.


They key link between capitalism and freedom is in ownership of property.

Skirting for a moment ownership of land - idea is that if we have system which does not hinder people's pursuit of goals we must allow them to retain (substantial) control over the results of their labour. If I build a house (because I want to live in it on my own) "society" can not demand that I now house 5 more people with me just because they are homeless.
To do so would be to treat my labour as means towards someone else's goals (homeless, government, do-gooders...).

Likewise if I build a house for you in exchange for your making a computer for me - we are both pursuing our goals without harming anyone else's ability do do likewise and free society has no business interfering with us.

Note that there is nothing here that *forces* people in free society to own property. I can equally choose - of my own free will - to enter a commune or to devote all my labour to the well-being of others. Those are all legitimate choices that a free society should and would respect. Key point is that in a free society those who wish to use their labour to amass property should be allowed to do so as a part of the general societal rules on non-interference with other people's goals.

Likewise, free society can and should persecute fraud. In a same way that a thief, slaver or a murdered acts to interfere with others pursuing their goals - so does fraudster. Persecution of frauds is logically equivalent to the enforcement of good-faith contracts.

Once you have freedom to own property and enforcement of contracts you have all the necessary conditions for capitalism.


Private property and capitalism are also foundational to alternate political systems, including fascism. Oligarchic landowner dictatorships, post-colonial cleptocracies or fascist corporatism demonstrate that private property and capitalism, by themselves, are not sufficient to produce freedom, and that at the very least additional political conditions have to exist.


Which I said at the beginning of this discussion some two pages ago.

Capitalism can exists without (much) freedom but significant amount of freedom can hardly exist without some form of capitalism.
 
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Víctor Pérez
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Which, unless we operate with a definition of freedom that is orthogonal to that of capitalism, will only be a tautology; that's why I understood your last few posts as reverting to the opposite causation.
 
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  • Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:12 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:11 pm
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Mika R.
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More evidence about the systemic moral hazard that the monetary system is now facing:

Quote:
Draghi $158B Free Lunch Boosts Bank Profits

Banks are benefiting from a European Central Bank subsidy that could reach 120 billion euros ($158 billion), enough to pay every bonus at financial firms in London for the next 24 years at today’s levels.

Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc, BNP Paribas SA (BNP) and Societe Generale SA are among more than 500 banks that took 489 billion euros of three-year loans from the Frankfurt-based ECB at a December auction. The loans carry a 1 percent annual interest rate, less than a quarter of the 4.3 percent average yield on euro-denominated senior unsecured bank debt of all maturities in the past year, according to Commerzbank AG.

The ECB is flooding the banking system with cheap money in a bid to avert a credit crunch after the market for unsecured bank debt seized up last year and funding from U.S. money markets disappeared. Any bank in the region can borrow an unlimited amount, provided it pledges eligible collateral. Lenders won’t face curbs on bonuses or dividends.

Lenders could take 680 billion euros of loans at the second auction on Feb. 29, according to a Goldman Sachs Group Inc. survey of investors published last week. That would raise total borrowings from the ECB’s longer-term refinancing operation, or LTRO, to a record 1.2 trillion euros, surpassing the $1.2 trillion in peak lending by the Federal Reserve to U.S. banks after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc.’s 2008 collapse.

Banks including Morgan Stanley, JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Goldman Sachs reaped an estimated $13 billion by borrowing cheaply from the Fed and lending at a higher rate, according to data compiled by Bloomberg from central bank records of transactions obtained by court order and under the Freedom of Information Act. That figure, based on the lending margins of 190 banks that borrowed from the Fed, isn’t comparable to the estimate of the ECB subsidy.

“You are certainly going to get banks that don’t need the funds profiting,” said Richard Werner, an economist at the University of Southampton, England. “It would be much cheaper to target support for the 20 or so banks that need it, but politically the central bank wants to be seen to be neutral. It is a massive money-making opportunity for those who don’t need it to play the yield curve.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-13/draghi-158b-free-lu...

Maybe the current form of polito-capitalism should be renamed as 'fuck-it-all'ism.
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  • Posted Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:01 pm
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