"I remember my own childhood vividly…I knew terrible things…
but I knew I mustn't let adults KNOW I knew…it would scare them." -Maurice Sendak
Well, I wouldn't wish Walker on my worst enemy, but they do seem to need a new deal with better-targeted perks. As a defender of teachers, and to a limited extent their unions, I'm absolutely in agreement that this is garbage. I understand there's an argument to be made for being responsive to the incentives with which one is presented and gaining as much benefit as the law allows, but I'd like to see some more civic-spirited sacrifice on everybody's part.
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
woo not so fast. Merchant banks lie about their products so lets get rid of merchant banks.
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
Public unions are the disease. Stories like this are merely the symptoms.
America is the disease. Stories like this are merely the symptoms. Let's end America.
(hey, as long as we're drawing completely arbitrary and irrational lines)
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
Public unions are the disease. Stories like this are merely the symptoms.
Things were far better when politicians got to hand out public sector jobs like candy, fire people at will for daring to oppose kick backs and other payola schemes, use public employees to promote their campaigns, promote lackeys over more experienced and qualified candidates, lay off people just before their pension rights vested, set locations and hours of work without regard to employee interest, ingore workplace safety and so on. That was such a better time....for those in power.
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
Public unions are the disease. Stories like this are merely the symptoms.
I can't say more, because I'll be banned for telling you exactly what I think about that shit.
Oscar Goldman, for as he collects the parts to repair Steve Austin, he has found in the person of Scott Walker a veritable treasure trove of bionic technology.
Last edited Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:42 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
Public unions are the disease. Stories like this are merely the symptoms.
I can't say more, because I'll be banned for telling you exactly what I think about that shit.
Sorry that you feel incapable of a civil and cogent expression of your opinion. Perhaps you were unaware of just how thouroughly public employee jobs have been misused. I would hate to think you were aware of such abuses and just didn't care.
NY unions take advantage of contracts so lets end their teacher unions. Then, because some members of congress abuse their positions, we should terminate all of their benefits. Some people cheat on their taxes so end the IRS. Other people lie about their disability so lets end disability programs. Cops sometimes lie on the stand so lets end their unions.
Wonder if we should simply try and fix things on a case by case basis? Nah, that takes too much effort. Let's just villify any institution that isn't based on a pure profit motive.
After all the "free" market will take care of all of us. Right?
Public unions are the disease. Stories like this are merely the symptoms.
I can't say more, because I'll be banned for telling you exactly what I think about that shit.
Sorry that you feel incapable of a civil and cogent expression of your opinion. Perhaps you were unaware of just how thouroughly public employee jobs have been misused. I would hate to think you were aware of such abuses and just didn't care.
I'm thoroughly aware of how much assholes like BJ and Walker would like to take away the public's freedom to organize labor and have a voice in work environments. I'm thoroughly aware of how they want to allow people to choose not to pay union dues in jobs that the unions actively represent and substantially increase pay, benefits, and working conditions. I'm thoroughly aware of how they're lashing out against workers using the benefits provided by established work contracts as they were negotiated, all the while smearing unions and somehow ignoring the officials that are on the other side of the bargaining table.
120 years ago sick time was a disgusting luxury. Vacation time was a disgusting luxury. A living wage was a disgusting luxury. Employer provided healthcare was a disgusting luxury. A 40 hour work week was a disgusting luxury. Retirement plans were a disgusting luxury. Unemployment insurance was a disgusting luxury. Most of these things were unheard of. All these things, and more, were fought for and won with union blood. The middle class was forged with union blood.
Every idiot that sneers from behind their monitor about the evil nasty unions does so while collecting the societal benefits made standard by union brothers and sisters. The blood of my union brothers was spilled to give workers a quality of life never before known to the working class, and these people shit on their memory. I for one say fuck you. Go ahead and bring out the banhammer. Fuck you BJ. Fuck you Walker. Fuck every fucker that wants to steal our freedom to organize.
"I remember my own childhood vividly…I knew terrible things…
but I knew I mustn't let adults KNOW I knew…it would scare them." -Maurice Sendak
bjlillo wrote:
Scott Walker did the only reasonable thing that there was. He was given a choice between bankrupting the state, laying off thousands of workers, or pushing back against the organizations that have been abusing taxpayers here for decades. He made the best possible choice.
A) Don't quote crap. B) Cuomo faced a similar situation, and extracted fiscally similar concessions from the unions with their cooperation, because he treated them like allies in a struggle against economic disaster. Last I saw, his approval rating was 63% among Republicans and even higher among Democrats. Walker could have accomplished his fiscal goals without alienating so many of his constituents, but chose not to. His choice only looks like the best possible one when you restrict your list to three choices. You've painted this like the question is whether public employee compensation should or should not have been cut, when nobody's on the other side of that question.
"I remember my own childhood vividly…I knew terrible things…
but I knew I mustn't let adults KNOW I knew…it would scare them." -Maurice Sendak
bjlillo wrote:
rinelk wrote:
A) Don't quote crap. B) Cuomo faced a similar situation, and extracted fiscally similar concessions from the unions with their cooperation, because he treated them like allies in a struggle against economic disaster. Last I saw, his approval rating was 63% among Republicans and even higher among Democrats. Walker could have accomplished his fiscal goals without alienating so many of his constituents, but chose not to. His choice only looks like the best possible one when you restrict your list to three choices. You've painted this like the question is whether public employee compensation should or should not have been cut, when nobody's on the other side of that question.
Kelsey, you know that's not true. I've shown you what the unions did when Walker was the Milwaukee County Executive, what they did in the lame duck session between his election and inauguration, and what the unions who got contracts passed before the Budget Repair Bill was signed into law. Every single one of them chose layoffs over benefit reductions. It's like you forget these conversations 5 minutes after we have them.
No, it's like they're more persuasive to you than to me. You have presented this as evidence that it would have been impossible to get the sorts of cuts needed without the measures Walker took repeatedly. I have repeatedly rejected them as poor evidence for that conclusion.
To reiterate the reasons I think these are poor evidence for the claim that Walker couldn't have gotten the budget-relevant cuts he sought without removing collective bargaining: - In none of these cases had the union put its reputation on the line by publicly claiming they would act other than they did. - The cuts agreed by unions in a large number of districts before the legislation passed were similar to those agreed after. - There exists a comparable case, in New York, in which the unions said they'd accept cuts and did.
You pull out one case of a single district which didn't behave as I've suggested they generally would, and dismiss over a hundred cases which support my generalization. Then you act like I must be deliberately deceptive because *I'm* ignoring the evidence?
"I remember my own childhood vividly…I knew terrible things…
but I knew I mustn't let adults KNOW I knew…it would scare them." -Maurice Sendak
bjlillo wrote:
rinelk wrote:
No, it's like they're more persuasive to you than to me. You have presented this as evidence that it would have been impossible to get the sorts of cuts needed without the measures Walker took repeatedly. I have repeatedly rejected them as poor evidence for that conclusion.
To reiterate the reasons I think these are poor evidence for the claim that Walker couldn't have gotten the budget-relevant cuts he sought without removing collective bargaining: - In none of these cases had the union put its reputation on the line by publicly claiming they would act other than they did. - The cuts agreed by unions in a large number of districts before the legislation passed were similar to those agreed after. - There exists a comparable case, in New York, in which the unions said they'd accept cuts and did.
You pull out one case of a single district which didn't behave as I've suggested they generally would, and dismiss over a hundred cases which support my generalization. Then you act like I must be deliberately deceptive because *I'm* ignoring the evidence?
The unions always put their employees before taxpayers, so their behavior isn't a surprise to anyone who is paying attention.
The cuts agreed to by the unions are not similar to the flexibility given by the Budget Repair Bill. The big money saved has not been in the required contributions to the pension fund. It's come from the removal of collective bargaining on things like health insurance providers. The pension contributions have been nice, but they're only about 25% of the savings picture.
New York is not Wisconsin.
You notice that when you start talking about the budget repair bill, you're now talking about "flexibility" rather than money saved? I can probably dredge up the same article I posted the last time we had this exchange in which savings was the same under both plans.
How is New York relevantly different from Wisconsin? Are unions here less inclined to put their employees before taxpayers, or somehow more reasonable about accepting the need for cuts? I ask because the reasons you have for your opinions about public-sector unions seem like they'd apply equally to all of them, yet I've highlighted an example where they seem unjustified.
120 years ago sick time was a disgusting luxury. Vacation time was a disgusting luxury. A living wage was a disgusting luxury. Employer provided healthcare was a disgusting luxury. A 40 hour work week was a disgusting luxury. Retirement plans were a disgusting luxury. Unemployment insurance was a disgusting luxury. Most of these things were unheard of. All these things, and more, were fought for and won with union blood. The middle class was forged with union blood.
When's the last time anyone worked a 40 hour week?
When's the last time anyone worked a 40 hour week?
Shockingly, as soon as unions started to lose strength, the 40 hour week disappeared. It is probably some sort of coincidence, though, as these are two totally unrelated things.
When's the last time anyone worked a 40 hour week?
Shockingly, as soon as unions started to lose strength, the 40 hour week disappeared. It is probably some sort of coincidence, though, as these are two totally unrelated things.
I think they are related, of course. However, there are a wide range of jobs that require more than 40 hours of week that never have been unionized. I see the 40 hour week as a myth for all but hourly employees.
When's the last time anyone worked a 40 hour week?
Currently I am normally working exactly 40 hrs a week. Although I will work overtime as my boss does not want my dept to cause the project to be delayed, so it is a hurry up and wait situation. But I have to ask permission to work overtime, or be assigned to work overtime, but it is an exception thing and not routine. That may change later.
When's the last time anyone worked a 40 hour week?
Currently I am normally working exactly 40 hrs a week. Although I will work overtime as my boss does not want my dept to cause the project to be delayed, so it is a hurry up and wait situation. But I have to ask permission to work overtime, or be assigned to work overtime, but it is an exception thing and not routine. That may change later.
Are you salaried? Because every salaried position I have ever seen is expected between 50-60 hours.
Yes, I am salaried, but I get paid for overtime (as straight time). Every other job I have worked I was expected to work lots of hours as well, this is a weird job.
Yes, I am salaried, but I get paid for overtime (as straight time). Every other job I have worked I was expected to work lots of hours as well, this is a weird job.
but I knew I mustn't let adults KNOW I knew…it would scare them." -Maurice Sendak
