Chris Wilczewski
United States
Folsom
California
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So, one of the things that makes hive base game good is the unit scarcity. When I play a piece I feel like I'm depleting a resource. Adding ladybug and mosquito reduces this feeling and makes for less tension, and I believe there was a thread somewhere saying that part of why there aren't more expansions is they want to retain the unit scarcity.
I'm interested in hearing opinions on this.. What if using expansions reduced the number of bugs would change this dynamic for the better. What if, in order to use dragonfly you have to give up a different bug?
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Loren Cadelinia
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
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I definitely share your concerns. When I play Hive with my friends, the games are often shorter when we play with an expansion, and we almost never play with both expansions for reasons below. I would say that my friends and I are on the same level;
Having said that, the player who is first usually wins the game 65% without an expansion.
With the mosquito, the starting player gets an extra attacking piece, while if played right, the second player can get an extra defending piece (an ant most of the time). Even with this, the start player wins probably 75%.
With the ladybug, the starting player gets a very powerful attacking piece, usually used as the "check-mate" piece, while the second player can only use their ladybug to defend opportunistically. The start player win 90% of the time.
I have found it extremely difficult to block with the ladybug. Unless the start player makes a mistake, the start player will always have an extra attacking piece and my ladybug will likely not be an extra defender.
I think it would be cool if each player could choose which expansion they would want to use. This does make the player pieces assymetric, but I think if start player chooses ladybug, I will almost assuredly pick the mosquito to balance turn order a bit.
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My theory is that the starting player gets more of an advantage when the number of pieces that can reach a boxed-in field (e.g. Grasshopper, Beetle, Ladybug and Mosquito) grows.
With the basic game I often have the feeling that I'm one piece short for making the kill. The expansions fill in that gap.
Imho it would have been better when the expansions wouldn't just be added, but being used instead of a standard piece (e.g. a Grasshopper for a Ladybug). The balance issues should be less.
@Loren: I would like to have a Hive variant in which you could create your own "swarm" out of 15 to 20 pieces. A bit like the collectible cardgames and dice games. That way we could have lots of expansions and the basic game could stay as it is (= great).
H
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Randall Ingersoll
United States
Port Orange
Florida
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I agree partially to the above comments.
White does have an advantage, but in Classic Hive I don't think that it is 65%
Adding bugs no doubt increases this advantage.
Adding both bugs increases it a lot.
Look at last year's BoardSpace tourney (in which all games used Ladybug)
There was a high percentage of White wins.
Thus the reason that players are looking to design a good defensive bug.
If anyone wants to play at BoardSpace send me an email:
rmingersoll@gmail.com
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Loren Cadelinia
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
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rmingersoll wrote: I agree partially to the above comments.
White does have an advantage, but in Classic Hive I don't think that it is 65%
Adding bugs no doubt increases this advantage.
Adding both bugs increases it a lot.
Look at last year's BoardSpace tourney (in which all games used Ladybug)
There was a high percentage of White wins.
Thus the reason that players are looking to design a good defensive bug.
If anyone wants to play at BoardSpace send me an email:
rmingersoll@gmail.com
65% was probably a bit high, but definitely more than half.
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Darren Mac
Canada
Valley
Nova Scotia
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Just throwing a thought out there, without thinking too much
What if both players took the BASE pieces
The player going SECOND got to choose their 'expansion piece' FIRST
The player going FIRST then had to choose a DIFFERENT expansion piece.
If the player going first (choosing second) chose the MOSQUITO, it can copy any ability of a piece from the BASE GAME.
Does that make any sense? I wholeheartedly invite any other person that knows more about Hive than me (that's anyone ) to fix this suggestion (or scrap it altogether)
This would, though, make future expansions worth making, as well as not diluting the Hive too much, since only a single extra piece will be used per game (12 on 12)
This would also address the disadvantage of player 2, by letting him 'choose his (unique) weapon'
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Christian Sperling
Berlin
Germany
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The interesting thing is that the poll which was created some days ago shows that most of the people like Hive with both expansions the most!
It seems there is a discrepancy between "the best version" from a logical point of view (how works the game perfect?, how is it balanced...) and the fun factor which is rather high playing these unbalanced versions with "too many" attacking pieces.
With me it is the same: I love playing Hive + Mosquito + Ladybug because the chances to have a non standard game are really high and it is challenging to explore defensive strategies as the defender. It may be harder to stop the first attacking sequence of the start player than in a Hive game without expansions but if you do more analysis you will discover new strategies and finally your understanding of the game mechanics get deeper. The Ladybug is a great attacking piece for the start player but also a great defensive piece for the non-start player if used very early in the game.
I agree that taking out a standard bug when using an expansion could balance the game out but the truth is: I enjoy MORE bugs. It is just nice to have a bigger choice which bug to place next.
I will make a note in the new Dragonfly rules that you CAN play with all 3 expansions but this will increase the start players advantage to a level which is not suitable for tournaments. Nevertheless I am sure this is the version lots of people will try out first after they are comfortable with the Dragonfly rules.
As long as nobody can prove that the start player can definetely win all the time with one or more expansions using a special tactic - I don`t see a big problem.
@Loren Cadelinia
My subjective experience is that my games last longer in average playing with expansions if challenging a good opponent and last shorter than normal when playing against a someone with a lower strength than mine because I can use the extra piece/pieces more efficient than him/her which makes the difference.
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David Stokes
United States
Seal Beach
California
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Even at the grandmaster level, going first is an advantage in chess. It's hardly surprising that going first is an advantage in Hive, which is, let's face it, a deeper, more complex cousin of of tic-tac-toe.
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Darren Mac
Canada
Valley
Nova Scotia
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Has an algorithm for Hive been worked out that guarantees a tie for both players?
Tic-Tac-Toe offers no advantage to player #1 - every game ends in a tie. IMO, Hive is only as closely related to Tic Tac Toe as most abstracts are.
I might be wrong, though, and am certainly willing to be convinced otherwise ('Wrong' is a state I'm used to!! )
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If it is still possible to win as the second player, one should bear with first player advantage. Although I'm far from the master level, I find playing Hive with Ladybug & Mosquito very exciting (all these new traps you can set, plus much bigger challenge while defending) despite being less balanced than standard version.
I agree with Chlorix's theory, which, in my opinion, applies to all the pieces one can use to surround enemy Queen. The more of these are available, the bigger will first player advantage get (with creatures that can reach a boxed-in field having the biggest impact).
Adding any new creatures (even defensive only, like f.e. the Moth) can lead to even further loss of balance (mostly because the Mosquito gets more power with each new creature added).
Hive is an open game and one can think of many ways to spice it up, by slightly changing the general rules. I thought of the following modification, which could be interesting, in relation to first player advantage: each player can play a maximum of 12 pieces. All pieces are divided into two groups: basic ones (all pieces from standard Hive) and special ones (expansions plus unofficial pieces). One is allowed to play only one special creature per game. It is up to the player, which special creature he or she will choose (an alternative is to use 10 standard and 2 special pieces). I've already tried it with a friend - an interesting version 
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David Stokes
United States
Seal Beach
California
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Well, I was careful to say "cousin", Hive isn't a close relative of tic-tac-toe, but both games involve placing pieces, whereas chess exclusively involves moving them. Um, of course, you can move Hive pieces...okay, I withdraw the comparison to tic-tac-toe.
My main point remains: going first is an advantage in chess, so it is likely to be an advantage in Hive. So unless it's a huge advantage, I don't think it's a reason to change the rules.
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Matt Loscutoff
United States
Sacramento
California
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An advantage only as long as white can maintain it
or is allowed to maintain it.
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David Gonzalez Rice
United States
New London
Connecticut
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Chlorix wrote:
With the basic game I often have the feeling that I'm one piece short for making the kill. The expansions fill in that gap.
Imho it would have been better when the expansions wouldn't just be added, but being used instead of a standard piece (e.g. a Grasshopper for a Ladybug). The balance issues should be less.
H
This is actually why I prefer the basic game. You really have to think hard about the order in which you place your tiles, and where you move them.
I agree that replacing a grasshopper and/or ant (!!!) with the expansion tiles is a good way to play.
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Loren Cadelinia
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
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comandantedavid wrote: Chlorix wrote:
With the basic game I often have the feeling that I'm one piece short for making the kill. The expansions fill in that gap.
Imho it would have been better when the expansions wouldn't just be added, but being used instead of a standard piece (e.g. a Grasshopper for a Ladybug). The balance issues should be less.
H
This is actually why I prefer the basic game. You really have to think hard about the order in which you place your tiles, and where you move them.
This!! This is true for me too. It's a tighter gameplay for me. For the starting player, thinking harder and working harder for the win, means more opportunity for the second player to "catch up", which makes the game less of an advantage for start player, compared to playing with expansions imho.
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darrenmac wrote: Has an algorithm for Hive been worked out that guarantees a tie for both players?
Tic-Tac-Toe offers no advantage to player #1 - every game ends in a tie. IMO, Hive is only as closely related to Tic Tac Toe as most abstracts are.
I might be wrong, though, and am certainly willing to be convinced otherwise :) ('Wrong' is a state I'm used to!! :) )
Added another thread related to ties and advantage for the second player here.
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