Andy Latto
United States
Foxboro
Massachusetts
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The Stash rules wrote:
Since Stash has a different card back, you will also know if it's in a player's hand, or set aside for someone's Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
But I think there's some ambiguity in that "and so on".
For example:
An opponent plays a Spy, so you reveal the Curse on top of your deck, and are told to keep it there. Are you now allowed to know whether the second card of your deck is a Stash? Are your opponents?
You play a Cartographer, draw a card, then look at the top 4 cards of your deck, choosing to discard two and put two on top of your deck.
Are you and your opponents now entitled to know whether the third card of your deck (the one under the four you looked at) is a Stash? Are your oppoonents entitled to know whether the third of the four cards you picked up is a Stash? Are they entitled to know whether the second card in your deck (one of the two you replaced with Cartographer) is a Stash?
This can make a difference when your opponent is deciding whether to play a Thief, or a Pirate Ship, or a Tribute.
I would guess that all of these cases are public information except whether the card you put back with the Cartographer is a Stash. There I'm not so sure, but I would be inclined to let a player stack two cards and put them on top of the deck, so that I don't know whether the second one is a Stash, and then stack two cards and discard them, so I don't know whether the second one of those is a stash either.
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Daniel Cepeda
United States
Tempe
Arizona
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I'm pretty sure the "and so on" means "any time someone can see the back of a stash card it becomes known what that card is." Or something to that effect. Even if the card is hidden in the middle of your deck, the card back can still be slightly visible.
Basically, once they know it, they can't unknow it. It's not so much an entitlement to know, but more of a fact of knowing. If you picked up the cards and looked through them, then the backs have been shown, and they can now know there's a stash there. If you can manage to restack them in such a manner as to hide your stash card, and hide the fact that it didn't go to your discard pile, I don't think anyone's entitled to know anything.
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Ken Stuart
United States
Patrick AFB
Florida
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Stash Rules
Stash is a Treasure that produces 2 coins when played, like Silver. Whenever you shuffle your deck, you can choose where in your deck each copy of Stash that you have goes. You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it; Stash itself has a different card back, so that's how you'll know where it is. If you have multiple copies of Stash, you can clump them together or spread them out or whatever you want. Since Stash has a different card back, you will also know if it's in a player's hand, or set aside for someone's Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
The last sentence is the important one:
Since Stash has a different card back, you will also know if it's in a player's hand, or set aside for someone's Haven (from Dominion: Seaside), and so on.
So to answer your question, yes, you are supposed to know where your opponent's stashes are located.
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Andy Latto
United States
Foxboro
Massachusetts
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wizcreations wrote:
So to answer your question, yes, you are supposed to know where your opponent's stashes are located.
I guess that's another question. Let's say that in my cleanup phase, I draw a Smithy and then reshuffle. I choose to put my Stash as the 7th card in the deck, so that after I draw the remaining 4 cards of my new 5-card I can pick it the Stash up with my Smithy, but won't lose it to a Pirate Ship or Thief. Are my opponents allowed to know that the Stash is exactly the 7th card in my deck?
Being required to announce "I am putting my Stashes into my deck at positions 8,9, and 23" doesn't seem like the right thing. And neither does allowing the opponent to say during their turn "Do you have any Stashes in the top four cards of your deck? I'm thinking about playing Pirate Ship twice". But if neither of these is allowed/required, then it would seem that being able to accurately estimate the position of the Stash when an opponent inserts into his deck would be a useful skill in playing well, and that seems like the wrong thing, too.
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Ken Stuart
United States
Patrick AFB
Florida
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Well, no, you're not going to announce it to the world. You are permitted to count how many positions down you want to place it and your opponent wont actually know the position until he/she sees the red card in your deck.
Once the red card back is visible at the top of your deck or in your hand, your opponent will know it is there. Otherwise, the location is secret for you.
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Daniel Cepeda
United States
Tempe
Arizona
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I don't see why you'd have to announce where you're putting stash. And I also don't see why accurately estimating the placement of Stashes would be a bad thing.
Frankly, if someone wants to spend so much time practicing that skill, they deserve the "advantage" they get over people that don't have that particular skill.
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andylatto wrote: An opponent plays a Spy, so you reveal the Curse on top of your deck, and are told to keep it there. Are you now allowed to know whether the second card of your deck is a Stash? Are your opponents?
When you reveal the top card, it's briefly not on your deck, so everyone can see if the top card under it is Stash or not.
andylatto wrote: You play a Cartographer, draw a card, then look at the top 4 cards of your deck, choosing to discard two and put two on top of your deck.
They will normally see if you drew a Stash if they're paying attention, from the card backs. You don't have to go out of your way to provide information. But you do not get to, say, hide your deck under the table and draw your four cards secretly.
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Mark Judd
United States
Mapleton
Utah
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IIRC, on Isotropic you can always tell the approximate location of your opponents' Stashes. However, you are not allowed to count your opponent's draw piles so you frequently don't know the exact location of the Stash. If you are good, you can usually guess the exact location of Stash if it is the 2nd or 3rd card from the top or bottom of the deck, but anything more than that is more difficult. If you check the "info" while your opponent is resolving a card such as Cartographer, you can also see approximately where Stash is located with respect to the remaining cards in the deck before any cards from Cartographer are put back.
However, if you can't count your opponents' cards, I wouldn't think you could request that they show you the approximate location of Stash in their deck like you can in Isotropic. Makes me wonder why they included that functionality instead of only revealing the location of Stash immediately at the reshuffle and again whenever it appears as either the top card of the deck or in your opponents' hands.
The owner of Stash is able to determine the location of Stash at any time in the game as the rules state that they are able to count the cards in their own draw pile which would also reveal the location of Stash. However, if they are going to do this then I would assume it would become public knowledge unless you are going to allow them to secretly count their deck under the table or something like that.
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Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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My understanding of Stash was that every player is allowed to know its exact position at any time. It sounds like I might be wrong.
So are players allowed to shuffle, and then secretly place Stash (for example, by doing it under the table) and not tell players where it is, so that they won't know until it gets to the top?
From Donald's post above, it looks like the answer is yes.
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Ken Stuart
United States
Patrick AFB
Florida
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banyan wrote: My understanding of Stash was that every player is allowed to know its exact position at any time. It sounds like I might be wrong.
No no no no no!
banyan wrote: So are players allowed to shuffle, and then secretly place Stash (for example, by doing it under the table) and not tell players where it is, so that they won't know until it gets to the top?
From Donald's post above, it looks like the answer is yes.
Yes, but you don't have to be that secretive.
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Do I always have a right to know whether a Stash is in my opponent's hand?
Suppose I play a Margrave, my opponent draws a Stash, looks at his 6-card hand, shuffles it under the table, picks 3 (seemingly at random), discards a stack of 3 cards to the discard pile with only the top card showing (not a Stash). He doesn't fan his hand now, leaving it on a neat pile on the table with only the top back showing (not a Stash).
Am I allowed to demand he fan his hand to let me see the card backs and hence deduce if he held onto his Stash?
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Mark Judd
United States
Mapleton
Utah
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NtNScissors wrote: Do I always have a right to know whether a Stash is in my opponent's hand?
Suppose I play a Margrave, my opponent draws a Stash, looks at his 6-card hand, shuffles it under the table, picks 3 (seemingly at random), discards a stack of 3 cards to the discard pile with only the top card showing (not a Stash). He doesn't fan his hand now, leaving it on a neat pile on the table with only the top back showing (not a Stash).
Am I allowed to demand he fan his hand to let me see the card backs and hence deduce if he held onto his Stash?
I'd say that's a definite yes. You should always be able to see how many cards are in your opponents' hands. Otherwise you have no idea if they are palming a card or something and really holding 6 cards instead of 5 or something like that.
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Daniel Cepeda
United States
Tempe
Arizona
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Beaveman wrote: NtNScissors wrote: Do I always have a right to know whether a Stash is in my opponent's hand?
Suppose I play a Margrave, my opponent draws a Stash, looks at his 6-card hand, shuffles it under the table, picks 3 (seemingly at random), discards a stack of 3 cards to the discard pile with only the top card showing (not a Stash). He doesn't fan his hand now, leaving it on a neat pile on the table with only the top back showing (not a Stash).
Am I allowed to demand he fan his hand to let me see the card backs and hence deduce if he held onto his Stash? I'd say that's a definite yes. You should always be able to see how many cards are in your opponents' hands. Otherwise you have no idea if they are palming a card or something and really holding 6 cards instead of 5 or something like that.
I can imagine no situation where this should ever come up. If you play with someone who hides their cards you need a new opponent. If you play with someone who may cheat, you need a new opponent. If you're playing in a tournament and someone is hiding their hands, you should probably call over a moderator/judge.
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NtNScissors wrote: Do I always have a right to know whether a Stash is in my opponent's hand?
Yes, and how many.
You do not get to do anything under the table whatsoever, unless that's how your group rolls. Stash is a marked card, and it's marked for everyone, not just you. Again this doesn't mean you have to push information onto your opponents.
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Jens www.spielefreun.de
Germany
Bad Berneck
Overtext is really cool. The best 100 GG I've ever spent. Well. I'm actually bored with overtext. Why did I give all that GG away?
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And now, there's a new problem...
The german BigBox contains stashes with regular backs. What about these?
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donaldx wrote:
They will normally see if you drew a Stash if they're paying attention, from the card backs.
They don't see it anymore with the Stash Version from the Dominion Big Box (German) sold by Metro Group - since it has the same back as every other card.
EDIT:  two guy's one mind setting.
Motorkopf wrote: And now, there's a new problem...
The german BigBox contains stashes with regular backs. What about these?
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Motorkopf wrote: And now, there's a new problem...
The german BigBox contains stashes with regular backs. What about these?
Get replacements from HiG!
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Mik Svellov
Denmark
Copenhagen N
EU
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donaldx wrote: Motorkopf wrote: And now, there's a new problem...
The german BigBox contains stashes with regular backs. What about these? Get replacements from HiG!
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'The Completist'
United States
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You can shuffle them in unpside down. You still may forget though.
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Tom Servo
United States
watkinsville
Georgia
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donaldx wrote: You do not get to do anything under the table whatsoever, unless that's how your group rolls.
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Ken Stuart
United States
Patrick AFB
Florida
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This thread is ridiculous! This really isn't that big of a deal...
You either pay attention to your opponent and know if he has a stash, or you don't. If you have stashes, you shouldn't hide all of your cards from everyone else. The stash is a marked card, end of story. If you don't want marked cards in your deck, DON'T buy it! (Or get the German cards and be done with it.)
As for the German cards being unmarked, they aren't marked. Don't go around defacing your cards because you want to match the English version.
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Edward
United States
New York City
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wizcreations wrote: As for the German cards being unmarked, they aren't marked. Don't go around defacing your cards because you want to match the English version.
What's the point of Stash if it's unmarked ...?
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Ken Stuart
United States
Patrick AFB
Florida
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theory wrote: wizcreations wrote: As for the German cards being unmarked, they aren't marked. Don't go around defacing your cards because you want to match the English version. What's the point of Stash if it's unmarked ...?
Just makes it harder on you when you're shuffling, I guess. Was it a misprint or was it intentional? I guess you should scribble on them with red marker if it was a misprint.
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