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Howdy BGG,
There was a discussion about that topic recently on my GeekList, so I wanted to ask in the major forum, whether someone knew a definite answer. Here is the question:
If I declare the Wandering Took as a defender and after revealing shadow cards I use his ability to give him to a different player, does the attack then count as undefended since the Took is no longer a legal defender?
Thx
PBrennan wrote: Official Answer Here's the answer from Nate:
There is nothing inherent in a control change that removes a defending character from the status of "defending." So even if the Wandering Took changes control, he is still considered to be defending the attack.
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Patrick Leacock
United States Chicago Illinois
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Yes, the attack is undefended because you removed Wandering Took between Step 3: Resolve shadow effect, and Step 4: Determine combat damage.
The regular damage would have to be assigned to one of your heroes. It is very clear on the bottom left of page 18 in the rulebook.
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
I have my doubts... There has been no effect that removes the WT from defense, because that is not stated on the WT and it is also not leaving play.
There is another example, which strengthens my doubts. When a questing hero gets Sacked! it is also not removed from the quest, even though Sacked! heroes cannot be legally assigned to quest.
I think the situation here is similar. If the WT has changed owner, he could not be assigned to defend legally anymore. However, he is already the defender and there is nothing that changes that.
If this is not true, I'd like to understand what removes WT form defense if he changes player.
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Tom Howard
United States Los Angeles California
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
I've been mulling this over for a little while, and would love to hear an official ruling on this, but here's how I think it works:
Phase 6: Combat
Step 1: Choose an Enemy
Step 2: Declare Wandering Took as the defender
Step 3: Resolve Shadow Effect. At this point, the attack is defended. If, for example, the Dol Guldur Orcs was the shadow card, the attacking enemy would only get +1 and not +3
---- Use Wandering Took's ability to move him to another player ----
Step 4: Determine Combat Damage. Now that it's time to assign damage, the attack is undefended, and the damage would be placed on a Hero. The shadow card's effect has already been resolved in the previous step, so you shouldn't re-calculate it at this point.
Therefore, I see Wandering Took as a very crafty way of mitigating the shadow effect of a card.
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Andy Mills
United States
Iowa
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
That shadow effect is not a one-time thing: as soon as the attack becomes undefended, the ATK bonus increases to +3.
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
I've sent the question to FFG. I'll post their answer as soon as I get it.
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Tom Howard
United States Los Angeles California
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Thanks Kyra.
Yeah, you've got me doubting myself again, Andy  I can honestly see the ruling go either way.
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Our list of allies grows thin!
United States Silver City New Mexico
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Nate ruled on a similar question here about player attacks: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/736358/timing-issues-que...
Quote: 4) In the player attack sequen ce, since it is possible to play actions after calculating attack strength in step 2, what happens if an attacker is returned to the hand between step 2 and 3 (e.g. Vassal of the Windlord)? Is the attack strength reduced? If yes, why is attack strength calculated in step 2 and then damage applied in step 3? Why interrupting the player attack sequence that way, whereas in the case of enemy attacks, attack strength calculation and damage allocation are part of the same step?
A: The first line of step 3 reads, "This is done by subtracting the target enemy's defense STR from the combined attack STR of all the attacking characters." If an attacking character leaves play before this calculation, it will not be present to contribute to the calculation. There might be a similar ruling about defenders leaving but even if there is not it is clear to me that the same reasoning would apply in the case of WT leaving play before receiving damage and the attack would be undefended.
If the WT had this ability it would be one of the strongest cards in the game. Get six of them in play and enemies could almost never damage you in attacks. WT would be way too powerful.
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Tom Howard
United States Los Angeles California
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Hahaha, I literally just re-read that whole post. And yeah, I'm now currently thinking that when Wandering Took changes sides, the damage will be recalculated based on the fact that the attack is now undefended...
However, let me ask this: Let's say you're defending an attack with any character who has 1 HP remaining, and the attacking enemy gets Hummerhorns as its shadow card - Deal 1 damage to each character the defending player controls. (2 damage instead if this attack is undefended.)
That 1 Damage would kill off the defender, leaving the attack undefended. Would you then deal another damage to each character since the attack is now undefended? I don't think so...
This logic could also apply to a handful of other Shadow Cards if you decide to move Wandering Took after Step 3
King Spider - Defending player must choose and exhaust 1 character he controls. (2 characters instead if this attack is undefended.)
Ungoliant's Spawn - Raise defending player's threat by 4. (Raise defending player's threat by 8 instead if this attack is undefended.)
Cavern Guardian - Choose and discard 1 attachment you control. (If this attack is undefended, discard all attachments you control.)
Misty Mountain Goblins - Remove 1 progress token from the current quest. (3 progress tokens instead of this attack is undefended.)
and many more...
In all these cases, I'd argue that you could use Wandering Took to diminish the shadow card's effect, then allow the attack to go undefended onto one of your Heroes.
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Our list of allies grows thin!
United States Silver City New Mexico
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
@GeckoTH, I think you raise an excellent point. We know that shadow card effects last until the end of the combat phase due to 2 cards from Kazad-dum that protect the attacking enemy from damage. But I agree with you that it is possible to hand off WT to another player after the shadow effect resolves. If the shadow effect confers immunity to an enemy then that immunity lasts until the end of the combat phase but we must figure out what the effect is when it is resolved so the only thing that matters is if the attack was defended at that time. I agree that WT would be useful in these situations to avoid the undefended effects on a shadow card.
Good catch! (although I would like to see what FFG has to say).
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Jeffrey Nolin
Japan Nakamachi, Hiroshima Hiroshima-ken
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
sirprim wrote: If I declare the Wandering Took as a defender and after revealing shadow cards I use his ability to give him to a different player, does the attack then count as undefended since the Took is no longer a legal defender?
I'm not following this: if you exhaust him to defend, how can you then use his ability?
And if you can for a reason I haven't learned yet, you've just given control to another player, it doesn't say to remove him from an assignment. If the action is legal (even though he has been exhausted), then he is still a legal defender, as the card specifies the transfer of ownership, as per page 18.2.
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
longagoigo wrote: sirprim wrote: If I declare the Wandering Took as a defender and after revealing shadow cards I use his ability to give him to a different player, does the attack then count as undefended since the Took is no longer a legal defender?
I'm not following this: if you exhaust him to defend, how can you then use his ability?
The WT's ability doesn't require the WT to exhaust. Hence his ability can be used whether he's ready or not. This is applicable to all character abilities that do not require exhaustion, and there is usually an other requirement to be met in that case. With the WT you have to reduce your threat and the receiving player has to increase his threat. Another example is Glorfindel. He can heal if he is exhausted, just pay a resource from his pool.
Hope this helps you understanding.
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Andy Mills
United States
Iowa
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Although a legal defender against an enemy engaged with you is a character you control. Moving WT breaks that.
We had this discussion with Sneak Attack / Son of Arnor a few months ago. The official response from Nate was that if you move an enemy mid-combat resolution (after declaring defenders, before assigning damage) then that enemy's attack will be undefended against the NEW player the enemy was moved to.
I don't see that WT moving mid-resolution would be different. My take is that if you move WT, then the attack against you becomes undefended.
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
manydills wrote: We had this discussion with Sneak Attack / Son of Arnor a few months ago. The official response from Nate was that if you move an enemy mid-combat resolution (after declaring defenders, before assigning damage) then that enemy's attack will be undefended against the NEW player the enemy was moved to. Would you mind giving me a pointer to that ruling? I seem to have missed that.
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Daniel B
Sweden Kungsbacka
128
22
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
GeckoTH wrote: I've been mulling this over for a little while, and would love to hear an official ruling on this, but here's how I think it works: Phase 6: Combat Step 1: Choose an Enemy Step 2: Declare Wandering Took as the defender Step 3: Resolve Shadow Effect. At this point, the attack is defended. If, for example, the Dol Guldur Orcs was the shadow card, the attacking enemy would only get +1 and not +3 ---- Use Wandering Took's ability to move him to another player ---- Step 4: Determine Combat Damage. Now that it's time to assign damage, the attack is undefended, and the damage would be placed on a Hero. The shadow card's effect has already been resolved in the previous step, so you shouldn't re-calculate it at this point.
GeckoTH wrote: This logic could also apply to a handful of other Shadow Cards if you decide to move Wandering Took after Step 3
King Spider - Defending player must choose and exhaust 1 character he controls. (2 characters instead if this attack is undefended.)
Ungoliant's Spawn - Raise defending player's threat by 4. (Raise defending player's threat by 8 instead if this attack is undefended.)
Cavern Guardian - Choose and discard 1 attachment you control. (If this attack is undefended, discard all attachments you control.)
Misty Mountain Goblins - Remove 1 progress token from the current quest. (3 progress tokens instead of this attack is undefended.)
and many more...
In all these cases, I'd argue that you could use Wandering Took to diminish the shadow card's effect, then allow the attack to go undefended onto one of your Heroes. I think it can go both ways. One could argue that the situations above aren't comparable. All the cases in the second quote are one-off effects that happen during the "Resolve shadow effect" step of combat, at which point the attack is still defended.
The first quote however could be considered to give the enemy a passive effect that isn't applied until the attack strength is determined (+1 or +3 depending on whether or not the attack is defended).
We know for sure that the enemy's attack strength isn't determined until step 4 at which point the attack is undefended. This situation is very similar to a situation that can occur during the player attack phase and which was officially clarified here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/8025656#8025656
So the real question is, when the +1/+3 shadow card is revealed and resolved, does it give the enemy an immediate attack bonus (+1) or does it give it a passive attack bonus (+1 or +3) that is applied when its attack strength is determined?
I'm actually leaning towards the second alternative.
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Andy Mills
United States
Iowa
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
I couldn't find the thread (and it may well be over at the FFG forums instead of here), but here is my original question (sent 8/12/11):
Quote: I had a question about attack resolution:
Player 1 is engaged by a Nazgul. The Nazgul is dealt a shadow card, declared as attacker, and Gandalf defends. The shadow card is revealed and has a shadow effect. After the effect resolves, Gandalf is chosen to be discarded.
At this point, player 2 attempts to save player 1 and plays Sneak Attack to get Son of Arnor into play. Son of Arnor's response triggers and player 2 engages the Nazgul before damage is dealt.
It's pretty clear that the Nazgul's attack is now undefended, but against whom? Is it player 1, who was attacked originally, or is it player 2, who is now engaged with the Nazgul? Or is it door number three, where the attack simply fizzles?
And Nate's response: (emphasis mine)
Quote: here are 4 steps to enemy attack resolution, and event cards/ actions can be played at the end of each step (p. 18 core rulebook):
1. Choose an enemy.
2. Declare defender.
3. Resolve shadow effect.
4. Determine combat damage.
In your example, Sneak Attack/ Son of Arnor would have to be played after step 3. Damage will then be determined against the new player with whom the Nazgul is engaged.
(Once step 4 begins, there is no opportunity to play an action until it has resolved.)
Nate French Senior Game Designer Fantasy Flight Games
I see the Wandering Took situation as comparable to this.
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Andy Mills
United States
Iowa
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Deebs wrote: So the real question is, when the +1/+3 shadow card is revealed and resolved, does it give the enemy an immediate attack bonus (+1) or does it give it a passive attack bonus (+1 or +3) that is applied when its attack strength is determined?
I'm actually leaning towards the second alternative.
As am I. I think you've describe two different classes of Shadow Effects: the "one-shot" class and the "lasting" class. I think the +x ATK effects are of the lasting variety.
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Our list of allies grows thin!
United States Silver City New Mexico
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Deebs wrote: So the real question is, when the +1/+3 shadow card is revealed and resolved, does it give the enemy an immediate attack bonus (+1) or does it give it a passive attack bonus (+1 or +3) that is applied when its attack strength is determined?
I'm actually leaning towards the second alternative.
I had originally agreed with you but while I was trying to write up my reasoning I changed my mind. Take the case of Hummerhorns:Hummerhorns wrote: Shadow: Deal 1 damage to each character the defending player controls. (2 damage instead if this attack is undefended.) If WT is defending, I think everyone agrees that you do 1-damage to all the defending player's characters when the shadow effect is resolved. If the defending character gets killed off, I don't think anyone says you then have to add 1 (or 2) more damage to the defending player's characters. The shadow effect is determined when the shadow effect is resolved even though that effect can last until the end of the phase.
The word "resolve" means:Quote: 1) Bring to an end; settle conclusively; 2) Reach a conclusion after a discussion or deliberation 3) Understand the meaning of ... So GeckoTH is pretty much saying that shadow effects get resolved when shadow effects get resolved. We figure out what the effect is at that time. We resolve it. If it ends up dealing X damage then we deal X damage. If it ends up we increase an attack strength by Y then we increase that attack strength by Y.
This was the only interpretation I could come up with that didn't turn into a big mess when I tried to write it down. In addition, I don't think this interpretation makes WT overpowered. A hero still has to take all the undefended damage that would have gone to the Took.
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Daniel B
Sweden Kungsbacka
128
22
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
But my point is that one could argue that the resolution of the shadow effect is that the enemy gets a passive ability saying that it has +1 attack if it is defended and +3 if it is undefended.
Note that there is nothing in the shadow effect that says that the +1 lasts until the end of the phase. With your reasoning (that the +1 attack bonus is an immediate effect that is applied during step 3) one could argue that the +1 bonus becomes permanent (brought to an end/settled conclusively as you put it). However, we all know that this is not the case. Why not? Because the shadow card stays on the enemy until the end of the combat phase and when we check the enemy's attack strengt at the start of step 4 we see that it has a bonus from the shadow card that is dependant on whether it is blocked or not.
And please do remember that I completely see your point of the argument, all I'm trying to say is that in my view there is no clear proof of either interpretation.
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Tom Howard
United States Los Angeles California
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Some great discussion here.
Khazad-Dum shows us that there are shadow cards that definitely last until the end of the phase: Patrol Leader - Cancel all damage dealt to this enemy.
Now, when a shadow card gives an enemy +1/+3, I think it's fair to say that the enemy would get +3 if Wandering Took took a hike, since Step 4 is where you do your actual vs calculation (at which point the attack is undefended).
On the other hand, for cards like Hummerhorns, King Spider, etc, their shadow effects get completely resolved during Step 3, while Wandering Took is still defending. If he decides to leave now (or is killed by Hummerhorns), none of those shadow effects have any bearing on 'Determine Combat Damage'. Therefore, even though those shadow cards are still in play, they've already done their task.
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Our list of allies grows thin!
United States Silver City New Mexico
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Deebs wrote: But my point is that one could argue that the resolution of the shadow effect is that the enemy gets a passive ability saying that it has +1 attack if it is defended and +3 if it is undefended. The card could have said that but it doesn't. The resolution (which happens when the card is resolved) could have been that the attacker gains the ability you mentioned. The problem with your interpretation is: how do you explain the Hummerhorns shadow effect? Why isn't it a passive, delayed effect too? How do you distinguish between immediate effects and passive delayed effects without writing new rules?
I originally agreed with you then I tried to write up an explanation of how some shadow effects, like that of Hummerhorns, get resolved immediately and others get resolved in the next step of the combat phase. I could not come up with a simple explanation. I first tried to use the word "instead" to pin the resolution of the card early but that doesn't work because a lot of the attack strength shadow effects use the word "instead". My next try was to say that attack strength shadow effects are special and their resolution gets delayed. This sounded like I was just making up rules. I finally had to admit that the only simple explanation that made sense was that shadow effects get resolved (determined) in the step where they are supposed to get resolved.
Another case where this comes up is if Dol Guldur Beastmaster gets Rockslide as a shadow card:Rockslide wrote: Shadow: Remove defending character from combat. This attack is considered undefended. and another shadow card that increases the attack by 1 or 3 depending on whether the attack is defended or not.
With one interpretation, the player can choose to resolve the attack strength shadow effect first and then resolve Rockslide. The attack will be undefended but the attack strength will only be increased by 1. With the other interpretation, the attack strength will always be increased by 3 regardless of the order the shadow effects were resolved.
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Patrick Brennan
Australia St Ives, Sydney NSW
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
Ok, I'll take a shot. I believe the combat sequence is:
6.2.3 Reveal Shadow card. Response. Resolve Shadow effect. ACTIONS 6.2.4 (if defender(s) dead, it’s undefended.) (if enemy/defender are now engaged/controlled by another player, it’s undefended) Undefended: Damage = Attack Stength (AS), apply to 1 Hero, OR Defended: Damage = AS - Defense, apply to 1 defender only Resolve damage dealt effects. Resolve cancel damage effects. Resolve damage (& effects). Resolve after attack effects. ACTIONS Defenders are no longer defenders.
The resolution of whether the combat is defended or undefended doesn't happen until 6.2.4 (as per Nate's Son Of Arnor ruling, ie you play Son Of Arnor, an enemy moves, you re-determine defended status, ie at start of 6.2.4).
Therefore the resolution of the Shadow Effect in 6.2.3 can't resolve into "+1 if defended" OR "+3 if undefended". It can't tell at this point whether it'll be one or the other. Therefore it's resolution must remain as the complete "+1 if defended or +3 if undefended". The whole sentence remains as the resolution and carries forward into 6.2.4,
Therefore if Wandering Took wandered off in the ACTIONS step of 6.2.3, the attack becomes undefended and some sorry Hero would take 3. That would be my take on it anyway.
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Tom Howard
United States Los Angeles California
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
I don't think we need to separate cards into delayed effects vs immediate effects. All shadow cards remain in play until the end of the phase. In the case of Hummerhorns, King Spider, Ungoliant's Spawn, etc, they make you take an action when they are revealed.
I think what makes the +1/+3 shadow cards unique is that Attack Strength is not calculated until Step 4, "Determine Combat Damage."
So, back in Step 3, when the shadow card is revealed, the action that you're immediately taking is that you're adding the following line of text to the enemy's card: "Attacking enemy gets +1. (+3 instead if this attack is undefended.)"
That enemy now has this ability...Step 3 resolved.
Now, during Step 4, this is when you start tallying up the enemy's attack strength. With his new ability, he will get +3 during this step if Wandering Took as gone walkabout.
(Disclaimer: I'm trying to convince myself just as much as anyone else, lol. BitJam, I agree with you that I can see it interpreted both ways, but this is how I can best explain it to myself)
@BitJam, you bring up an excellent point with Dol Guldur Beastmaster receiving Rockslide as one of his shadow cards...
According to the FAQ, when two things have Simultaneous Effect Timing, you can decide the order in which the effects resolve. In the case of Hummerhorns, King Spider, Ungoliant's Spawn, etc, I would argue that you can resolve the shadow effect of their card before resolving the shadow effects of Rockslide. In the case of the +1/+3 shadow cards, you could still choose to resolve it before Rockslide; however, following my argument above, that enemy would simply gain that ability.
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Our list of allies grows thin!
United States Silver City New Mexico
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
I agree it could go either way and all the shadow effects that exist now make it a little ambiguous. To move this along, I made a list of all the shadow effects that change what they do if the attack is undefended. I then put them into three lists:
1st list: shadow effects that must be resolved in step 3.
2nd list: shadow effects that will normally be resolved in step 3 but don't have to be.
3rd list: shadow effects that some people say should be resolved in step 4.
IOW the first list has effects where WT's disappearing act can certainly help you avoid the undefended penalty. The second list has effects where I think WT will help you but he doesn't have to . The third list has effects where the WT's help is clearly disputed. I'm not insisting you agree with my categorization. I'm trying to present the raw information so you can decide for yourself how these effects should be categorized.
WT certainly helps wrote: Choose and discard 1 attachment from the defending character. (If this attack is undefended, discard all attachments you control.)
Choose and discard 1 attachment you control. Discarded objective cards are returned to the staging area. (If this attack is undefended, discard all attachments you control.)
Deal 1 damage to each character the defending player controls. (2 damage instead if this attack is undefended.)
Deal 1 damage to each hero with a Clue card attached. (3 damage instead if this attack is undefended.)
Deal 1 damage to each wounded character. (2 damage instead if this attack is undefended.)
Deal 1 damage to the defending character. (Attacking enemy gets +2 [attack] instead if this attack is undefended.)
Defending player must choose and exhaust 1 character he controls. (2 characters instead if this attack is undefended.)
Defending player must discard 1 ally card from his hand or attacking enemy gets +3. (2 allies instead if this attack is undefended.)
If this attack is undefended, deal 2 additional shadow cards to attacking enemy.
WT should help wrote: If this attack is undefended, raise your threat by The Nameless Fear's [threat]
If this attack is undefended, return any current active location to the staging area. The Spider's Ring becomes the active location.
Raise defending player's threat by 4. (Raise defending player's threat by 8 instead if this attack is undefended.)
Remove 1 progress token from the current quest. (2 progress tokens instead if this attack is undefended.)
Remove 1 progress token from the current quest. (3 progress tokens instead of this attack is undefended.)
Disputed wrote: Attacking Enemy gets +1 [attack] (+3 [attack] instead if this attack is undefended.)
Attacking enemy gets +1 [attack] (+2 [attack] instead if this attack is undefended.)
Attacking enemy gets +1 [attack]. (If this attack is undefended, also raise your threat by 3.)
If this attack is undefended, attacking enemy gets +2 if it is a Scout.
If this attack is undefended, the damage must be placed on Wilyador. Again, I think everything in the first list must be resolved in step 3.
I think everything in the second list should be resolved in step 3 but they don't logically have to be. The first two in the list are the most ambiguous because if the attack is defended then you do nothing. Perhaps they should have been in their own list. All the others would normally be played by you taking the penalty in step 3. The Hummerhorns example (which we all agree on) dictates that once the "defended" penalty is paid then you don't go back and change it to the "undefended" penalty even if the defender disappears.
This leaves us with 4 effects that increase the attacker's [attack] and another that shifts all the damage to Wilyador.
I still think the cleanest solution is to resolve everything as much as possible in step 3 which would mean WT would help with all of these. But I also see the logic in delaying the "defended" evaluation of 7 (or fewer) of these effects to step 4.
Where do you draw the line?
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Patrick Brennan
Australia St Ives, Sydney NSW
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Re: Wandering Tooks ability and undefended attacks
BitJam wrote: I still think the cleanest solution is to resolve everything as much as possible in step 3 which would mean WT would help with all of these. But I also see the logic in delaying the "defended" evaluation of 7 (or fewer) of these effects to step 4. Where do you draw the line? Actually, after reading all these, I think you're right. I'm flipping sides. There's just too many different defended vs undefended scenarios, and they can't all wait to see if an attack is defended or not, and then to apply retrospective penalties (like losing an extra progress token) when it goes undefended is silly. And when in doubt, apply Occam's Razor and the cleanest solution is usually the resulting one.
I think the cleanest solution from a rules perspective is that the Shadow Effect fully resolves in its entirety. It adds +1 to the Attack Strength of the enemy immediately (because it's defended). It's that Attack Strength that gets carried into Step 4. The combat sequence I had above is still correct under this interpretation - the modified AS gets applied as Undefended damage to a Hero.
Otherwise you're carrying over an if-then into a new turn sequence step, which is not in keeping with every other rule in the game which is consistently to resolve a card in it's entirety before moving on.
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