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Subject: Scout Vehicle rule rss

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K G
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Floris_H wrote:
When the game came out only the Allies had weapons that ignored cover, this changed over time;

Then the Axis got Damage Resiliant, I'm sure others factions will dip into that well at some point;

SSU are the first faction to get aircraft. The rules for aircraft already indicate the other factions are looking at using aircraft.

They way I see it is that every expansion one faction will get a benefit the others don't and then it is sorted an expansion or so later with all factions getting the benefit or other factions getting something the first faction doesn't

Taking on aircraft will take time to get to grips with but I think it will work out in the end.


not quite the same though , yes the allies had weapons that ignored cover , but they still had to get there , and as an infantry unit , they were suseptible to attack from ANYONE .

in this case , we are talking about a new unit type , that can appear at the edge of your deployment zone one turn one and blast you on turn 2 , and by being a VTOL , doesnt have to make a mandatory move action , and thus CAN make sustained attacks from turn 2 on

what you are suggesting COULD still have been accomplished by giving the axis and allies airplanes that have the mandatory move , and still giving the SSU the VTOLS , which dont require the mandatory move . it would still have givin them something realllllllly cool , and unique game wise for a while , rather than give them the ONLY aircraft of ANY type in the game untill God knows when ,when they get around to getting some sort of aircraft out .

this is inline with what i said above about other release choices they could have made , but deliberatly chose not to do . again , its a cheap marketing choice that only benifits people willing to buy a whole new army .

and on top of the aircraft issue , is the hero issue , again , the SSU gets first access to heros that can pilot something , again , for who knows how long ? , again a cheap marketing ploy only available to the people willing to buy a whole new army .

i'll check back again tomarrow , off to get ready for work
 
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Thiago Aranha
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
well you your self agree that its a game changing expansion , so perhaps you can give a better explanation as to why only people willing to buy a new army get to use it ? for 3+months?

I agreed it is game changing, but so far we can't really say whether it is overpowered or not. It is game changing because now we'll get to use a side of the stat card that went ignored up til now, which shifts our appreciation for certain units we have. It will also give new strategic options to the side that has aircraft, and force new strategic decisions to the side that needs to counter them. All that signifies change, but in themselves none of these changes signify an unfair, unfun game.

As to why only SSU players will get to use aircraft for a few months, I call that a clever release plan. It does make the SSU a more enticing faction to get into initially. I think a vast portion of the costumers see little reason to get into a third faction. Unless you have a special fondness for russians, it's just more WW2 men with rifles and walking tanks. Why dump a lot of money on them, when they're essentially no different from the other current factions? Giving them exclusive aircrafts for a while sweetens a deal that needs sweetening. I'm not going to buy SSU, my budget just doesn't allow it, and frankly I see no need to delve into another faction. The only thing that tempted me to buy them were the aircraft. But I know the allies will have their own aircraft in the not so distant future, so I have no problem waiting a bit, and in the meantime and get learn to shoot down my friend's aircraft.


I think it would be a problem for me if the other factions never got aircraft, or even if the company led us to believe that, forcing us to buy SSU in order to have it. But they've been very clear on the fact that the other factions WILL get their own aircraft, so if you're not interested in russians, just have some patience and save your money.


GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
simple fact of the matter , there are A LOT of people who dont buy and play multiple factions , so when we go months without an axis release , thats sales lost . when we go months without an allies release , thats money lost.

I bring up this quote because I find it interesting how concerned you are here about the company making money. Yes, it's important that the company makes money, so that the line can continue to be produced. Why then do you call this a "cheap marketing ploy" when it's simply a clever and logical way of making more money out of the SSU by giving them some initial exclusivity? They are not forcing axis players to buy the SSU, they've said german planes are on the way. So what if it's a bit more challenging to defeat the ruskies for a few months? Isn't a challenge a fun thing?
 
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Floris H
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The point I was making is that with each release one faction will have an advantage over the others while those factions catch up. It is part of every game.

If they released everything at the same time for every faction then there is no need to make so many new models and new rules.

Simply release the same set of models in three seperate colours and be done with it.
That is not what people want, you want unique models for your faction and unique rules to go with them. Even units that are "the same" have variations to identify them as belonging to a certain faction. Just look at Recon rangers and Recon grenadiers.

Yes it is likely that the SSU will have a benefit with the aircraft they can take but the other factions have things to take them on and will get aircraft in the near future (actually it is 1947, so make that the past. . . . . . .ok i'm confused now)
 
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K G
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Floris_H wrote:
The point I was making is that with each release one faction will have an advantage over the others while those factions catch up. It is part of every game.

If they released everything at the same time for every faction then there is no need to make so many new models and new rules.

Simply release the same set of models in three seperate colours and be done with it.
That is not what people want, you want unique models for your faction and unique rules to go with them. Even units that are "the same" have variations to identify them as belonging to a certain faction. Just look at Recon rangers and Recon grenadiers.

Yes it is likely that the SSU will have a benefit with the aircraft they can take but the other factions have things to take them on and will get aircraft in the near future (actually it is 1947, so make that the past. . . . . . .ok i'm confused now)


my point is that they still could have done that by releasing an airplane for the axis and allies instead of a new walker .

the SSU release is FULL of OTHER new/unique stuff , even without the choppers :

sniper teams with 2 snipers (probable range 6)
regular infantry teams with a sniper (probable range 6)
commissar squads/heros : a NEW type of hero/squad
heros that can pilot vehicles



this expansion is FULL of new rules , many of which are game changers , but the ONLY people who get to take advantage of any of it for 3+ months are the SSU .

its one thing to give A gimick to one side , but to load that ENTIRE single side with EVERY new expansion benifit , and give NONE to the factions that already exist for "X" months ; they ignore the people who spent so much money already to make this game the success that it was , right out of the gate , despite the many blunders in marketing and PR that handicapped it early on , its kinda insulting .

and i know the other factions will eventually get theirs , BUT as we have seen in the past , there have been stumbling blocks to the market that have resulted in product release dealays , and as with this month and last , we had NO releases at all .






the russians on their own , are already a big draw for many to buy a new army . despite the conflicts and tensions between the USSR and the rest of the world durring the cold war , many have some sort of deep down romantic attachment to the whole russian game idea .

games like AT-43 played on that with the red block , they were in no way really better , and in some ways had major drawbacks compared to the other factions , but were popular and cool , JUST because they were russian like .

in 6 months , if i was JUST getting into this game , and NOT pushed to take "X" side to increase diversity here , i would probably choose SSU , JUST because they are russian .

to quoet a good movie : "If you wanna pop that puppy's can you don't have to grease him so hard, jarhead"

its a long night , later guys .
 
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Thiago Aranha
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GrandInquisitorKris wrote:
its one thing to give A gimick to one side , but to load that ENTIRE single side with EVERY new expansion benifit , and give NONE to the factions that already exist

- Axis are the first to get medium-heavy walkers.
- Allies are the first to get walkers that walk on water.

Sure, not the greatest game changers, but certainly not the capitalized "NONE" you claim.
 
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WorldDustLeague WDL
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Allies are still the only faction with Black Ops. That is a rule with a big impact on the game.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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And Tank Head, which became incredibly powerful with the heavy walkers.
 
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you guys are like an old married couple.

how bout that scout rule!cry
 
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Thiago Aranha
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What scout rule?!

Oh...
 
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WorldDustLeague WDL
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Loophole Master wrote:
What scout rule?!

Oh...


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Floris H
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The latest new rule is always seen as the best thing in the game and the thing that will be unbeatable.

Then three months later the next new rules is revealed and it starts all over again.

Every time it turns out that there are ways around the new unit, or special rule, or whatever. It just takes time and that is what makes games fun.
 
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K G
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Floris_H wrote:
The latest new rule is always seen as the best thing in the game and the thing that will be unbeatable.

Then three months later the next new rules is revealed and it starts all over again.

Every time it turns out that there are ways around the new unit, or special rule, or whatever. It just takes time and that is what makes games fun.


when the game came out , and the allies had black ops , and fast , that was counered by the axis having berzerk and laser weapons .

when tank head came out , it was a good ability to have , but not a major game changer until several expansions later when the heavy walkers hit the table .

ok , so the allies DO get amphibious walkers .................. did i miss something , or are there only a very few scenarios that have water on the map ........ not a game changing ability , and i would suspect , not even something that will see much use in home scenarios .

and the axis get medium heavy walkers , not a game changing walker since the axis already have heavy walkers , so in reality its a step DOWN from what they already have . and while I would happily throw down a walker with a flame weapon , i also recall all the crying and complaining from allies players over how useless the hot dog is , i suspect there will be atleast some of the same about a medium heavy walker with flamers , so ...... other than any special skills that walker has , we already know what the wotan has , and its nothing spectacular .


this isnt one new rule that gives the SSU an edge or gimick , its ALL the new stuff .

JUST playing catchup , to give the allis and axis access to the same game changing material , and catch the SSU up to the axis and allies other units (A3 infantry , light and heavy walkers , etc... ) , they could skip releasing a "operation" expansion for another 6 months , and still have product slots left to fill .



and so did i miss something loophole , did they give ANY of the new GAME CHANGING material to the axis or allies ? or is that saved , ONLY for the people who are willing to race right out and buy a whole new army ?


and the scout vehicle question was anwered 2 or 3 pages ago as was fast and assault .
 
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Thiago Aranha
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It's clear that we assign different meanings to the term "game-changing". To me, anything that changes the game is game-changing. A tank walking on water is game changing, water used to be impassable terrain, now this units gets to wallow in it, safe from the reach of nasty zombies and apes. Is it a very powerful or extremely useful ability? Probably not, but it's still game-changing in my opinion.

But from what I gather from your comments, you interpretation of "game-changing" really leans more towards "overpowered". Something that puts the opposition at a great disadvantage, and that's how you see the aircraft. You're not complaining much about the hero pilots, only mentioning them in passing, and I think that's because you don't see them as overpowered (which is a very fair assessment looking at the cards for Koshka and the Babushka). So I sense that your gripe is not really with them giving something exclusive to the SSU (every faction has exclusive stuff), it all boils down to your perception that aircraft unbalance the game terribly in favour of a faction that has it against a faction that doesn't.

And, well, I just don't think you know enough about the aircraft rules and aircraft stats to make that assessment with any certainty. You can be wary, sure. You might have a bad feeling about it, but I think it's going too far to simply state as a fact that the faction with exclusive aircraft will easily dominate the game.
 
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K G
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Loophole Master wrote:
It's clear that we assign different meanings to the term "game-changing". To me, anything that changes the game is game-changing. A tank walking on water is game changing, water used to be impassable terrain, now this units gets to wallow in it, safe from the reach of nasty zombies and apes. Is it a very powerful or extremely useful ability? Probably not, but it's still game-changing in my opinion.

But from what I gather from your comments, you interpretation of "game-changing" really leans more towards "overpowered". Something that puts the opposition at a great disadvantage, and that's how you see the aircraft. You're not complaining much about the hero pilots, only mentioning them in passing, and I think that's because you don't see them as overpowered (which is a very fair assessment looking at the cards for Koshka and the Babushka). So I sense that your gripe is not really with them giving something exclusive to the SSU (every faction has exclusive stuff), it all boils down to your perception that aircraft unbalance the game terribly in favour of a faction that has it against a faction that doesn't.

And, well, I just don't think you know enough about the aircraft rules and aircraft stats to make that assessment with any certainty. You can be wary, sure. You might have a bad feeling about it, but I think it's going too far to simply state as a fact that the faction with exclusive aircraft will easily dominate the game.
you are right in that we each see something different in the term "game changing" , and i do think the hero pilots are a BIG deal , the hero squads are a BIG deal , for the SSU , there is a lot of BIG stuff , and while i think they do put the opposition at a dissadvatage , they are limited in that they all have to start on the other side of the board .

the air craft are the " cherry on top " to me in that they dont even have to start on the other side of the table now , NOW they can start right out side your deployment zone .

as i said above , there were 2 other options , that would have balanced it out some what . but instead they chose to only give the major advantages to one army .

imagin how this game would be viewed if :

1)in the original core set , ONLY the axis had walkers , for 3+ months

2) if the allies were the ONLY side to get a light walker for 3+ months

3) if only the allies got armor 3 infantry for 3+ months

4) if only the axis got heavy walkers for 3+ months

and if durring those release times , the other side only got 1 new unit for their faction every 4 months .


thats what operation zovograd is to the axis and allies .

as i said , they could have been fair about it all , but they chose to go the other direction , and again , because of it , ALL 3 sides will be playing catch up over this for a long while .
 
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