Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
Firstly, I only played the first fouzr or so scenarios this far, mostly two to three times.
And this being a game with Zombies, Frankensteins Monsters and Future apokalypse an robots and all.
And I really like the mechanics this far, ordering, duelling for orders, even torturing.
and some others here played even more scenarios an find it even better.
But: Plastic explosives can´ t scratch walls, Assault rifles or shotguns cannot kill point blanc. And even with a heavy machinegun, handled by an elite soldier no less, I cannot kill an un-armoured target two squares away in one go.
did I play something wrong? James Woo has two guns on the pic, of course he has only one pea shooter in the game (called MAGNUM?), and: It is even worse dealing damage than aforementioned "arsenal".
I was so frustrated, I even thought about rethemeing it into some Cave Wars skirmish game. Stones and clubs and flint knives, that´ s how the damage dealt (and the tohit rolling for that matter. but, okay, I can come up with causes for that. somehow, I do not know why) would seem more thematic in some way. Why are they called such misleading.
And a shaped charge for... breaking doors or what?
oh, that would be cool. Cave Wars en miniature.
-
suPUR DUEper
United States
Villa Hills
Kentucky
-
Are you rolling defense dice for against shooters?
I don't have a lot of experience with the game but it seems to me that if actual lethality were portrayed characters would die off way too quick to be "fun".
-
Jan Tuijp
Netherlands
Volendam
Noord-Holland
-
Oh come on... Obviously soldiers have much better armour in the future... and of course zombies, being dead already, are much, much harder to kill...
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
TedW wrote: Are you rolling defense dice for against shooters?
Against the damage throw, yes, i think we did that.
Quote: I don't have a lot of experience with the game but it seems to me that if actual lethality were portrayed characters would die off way too quick to be "fun".
I can see the point in that, somehow.
But the guns look so... deadly. And right in front of someone, without cover?
-
**MOSHIN' JOSH** [Here to have fun!]
Canada
Cambridge
Ontario
"Sometimes game rulebooks are meant to be used as a guide - not chiseled into stone tablets as scripture. If using a specific rule makes a game more fun for you, then it is not only your right - but it is your duty to change it." --Rob Bell
“My opinion is that a game has its own life when published, and is really alive when players want to add their own house rules!” --Bruno Cathala
-
I, too, was surprised by the lack of lethality when we introduced weapons, but...
TedW wrote: it seems to me that if actual lethality were portrayed characters would die off way too quick to be "fun".
...this is probably the key reason.
Still, I wish they did a bit more damage. 
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
Jan Tuijp wrote:
Oh come on... Obviously soldiers have much better armour in the future... and of course zombies, being dead already, are much, much harder to kill...
yeah, i thought something like that. the "euro aspect" of it. but wouldn´ t all the guns improve too, somehow? well, it is sf after all, so some leeway is in order.
I was simply suprised to see these weapons so... small in their destructiva ability. the names and impressive build are simply misleading in my book.(again, they are fairly hard to hit with, too. Assault guns. two squares away. )
maybe all the playing of combat commander was a bit misleading on my part. of course, being there no nazi zombies, there satchel charges kill walls outright (because that is what a shaped charge is made for  i guess ).
and, I must say, atheme like cave wars, well. seems mor fitting then.
-
Jan Tuijp
Netherlands
Volendam
Noord-Holland
-
superjosef wrote:
yeah, i thought something like that. the "euro aspect" of it. but wouldn´ t all the guns improve too, somehow?
Yeah well, they have been in storage for 500 years, you know...
Quote: well, it is sf after all, so some leeway is in order. I was simply suprised to see these weapons so... small in their destructiva ability. the names and impressive build are simply misleading in my book.(again, they are fairly hard to hit with, too. Assault guns. two squares away. )
Overhere we've yet to begin scenario 3. We are anxious for it, but we decided I should paint the miniatures first (I painted nearly all my Descent miniatures and it does make a difference).
I'll be sure to make the weapons and MKII look old.
Quote: maybe all the playing of combat commander was a bit misleading on my part. of course, being there no nazi zombies...
...As of yet! I'm still hoping for an expansion and Nazi zombies just sounds very ER somehow.
Quote: ...there satchel charges kill walls outright (because that is what a shaped charge is made for i guess ). and, I must say, atheme like cave wars, well. seems mor fitting then.
I wouldn't know. I've never been into one. I'm fairly sure though that from now on I'll never be able to enter a cave without thinking about this thread.
But as said above, the game would finish to quickly if the guns were as lethal as they should. The uniqueness of the miniatures creates the problem here. To satisfy your thirst for blood there should be more generic miniatures to represent NPC's (NORAD/Salemite soldiers, high priests, tax collectors) to splatter all over the place.
That would also make development of campaign scenario's a lot easier by the way (Ludically, are you listening?).
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
Jan Tuijp wrote: superjosef wrote:
yeah, i thought something like that. the "euro aspect" of it. but wouldn´ t all the guns improve too, somehow?
Yeah well, they have been in storage for 500 years, you know...
oh I love that picture  . "the HMG is on the frizz! Again! well i have to shoot you with my Mag- Num then! Damn! Misafire!
Again! No luck!
Take this!
Why is this happenning to me?
BOOM!
ya! shot of the zombies to, let´s reload."
Quote: Quote: well, it is sf after all, so some leeway is in order. I was simply suprised to see these weapons so... small in their destructiva ability. the names and impressive build are simply misleading in my book.(again, they are fairly hard to hit with, too. Assault guns. two squares away. ) Overhere we've yet to begin scenario 3. We are anxious for it, but we decided I should paint the miniatures first (I painted nearly all my Descent miniatures and it does make a difference). I'll be sure to make the weapons and MKII look old.
Quote: Quote: maybe all the playing of combat commander was a bit misleading on my part. of course, being there no nazi zombies... ...As of yet! I'm still hoping for an expansion and Nazi zombies just sounds very ER somehow. Quote: ...there satchel charges kill walls outright (because that is what a shaped charge is made for i guess ). and, I must say, atheme like cave wars, well. seems mor fitting then. I wouldn't know. I've never been into one. I'm fairly sure though that from now on I'll never be able to enter a cave without thinking about this thread.
I mean, set in the stone age. with cavemen and such Neanderthals versus the other guys... for fire. or against pneumonia.
Quote:
But as said above, the game would finish to quickly if the guns were as lethal as they should. The uniqueness of the miniatures creates the problem here. To satisfy your thirst for blood there should be more generic miniatures to represent NPC's (NORAD/Salemite soldiers, high priests, tax collectors) to splatter all over the place.
That would also make development of campaign scenario's a lot easier by the way (Ludically, are you listening?).
well, I thought at least the zombies could be a little... generic.
-
Jacob Russell
Canada
Vancouver
British Columbia
Bullshit!
-
There's a few guns that can be brutal. Have you searched through the equipment deck yet?
If you want to kill someone with a gun do it like this. Run up to shoot them after they've used up all their command points, then get initative and shoot again right away. In this game that kind of simulates a good shot without much room to dodge. Remember these are tight corridors littered with equpiment all over the place (you can search anywhere pretty much). Two squares away doesn't mean two clean spaces and a non moving target... you have to get a good shot off. There is a lot of back and forth being simulated with a simple die roll.
...and this is an alternate universe with superheroes. If you ever read superhero comics it doesn't matter that they all have guns everyone's super human reflexs ensure people don't get killed by guns in one go too often. In this game it's rare but it can happen. Also, with such a small arsenal of troops the game would suck if they died that quickly. Ever play Tannhauser? The game is ok but the death is so quick it's impossible to stratetgize anything at all. So there are some neccessary abstractions to keep it lively as well.
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
yea. tannhauser. that felt like a egoshooter. but the superhero thingy, well. yea.
like that shootout in hardboiled at the end. or the beginning.
-
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
-
I laugh when I watch action movies, because you've always got a scene or two where the hero is running across the room and diving behind a desk as 3-4 guys with machine guns fire away. Machine guns always miss the hero, though, and he plugs the bad guys with his pistol.
Earth Reborn is a movie, not a hardware analysis. If guns simulated actual firepower, how much fun would you have with Jack Saw? It's a great game. Don't look to closely at the man behind the curtain.
-
suPUR DUEper
United States
Villa Hills
Kentucky
-
superjosef wrote: TedW wrote: Are you rolling defense dice for against shooters? Against the damage throw, yes, i think we did that.
That might be the problem. No defense dice against shooters....... It is easy to miss- page 19 upper right corner....
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
TedW wrote: superjosef wrote: TedW wrote: Are you rolling defense dice for against shooters? Against the damage throw, yes, i think we did that. That might be the problem. No defense dice against shooters....... It is easy to miss- page 19 upper right corner....
i will put a reminder on that the next time! maybe we did that wrong. sadly the platic and the wall still stand.
-
suPUR DUEper
United States
Villa Hills
Kentucky
-
superjosef wrote: TedW wrote: superjosef wrote: TedW wrote: Are you rolling defense dice for against shooters? Against the damage throw, yes, i think we did that. That might be the problem. No defense dice against shooters....... It is easy to miss- page 19 upper right corner.... i will put a reminder on that the next time! maybe we did that wrong. sadly the platic and the wall still stand.
According to my quick math, plastic explosives should dish out ~6 hits. You would probably need to "pour it on" with 3 extra dice to give you an "expected" kill. I guess to compensate, you could reduce the defense value of the wall or, maybe more appropriately, give plastic explosives 4 auto hits in addition to the 4 dice....
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
as i recall, one cannot pour on explosives, only shooters?
-
suPUR DUEper
United States
Villa Hills
Kentucky
-
Nope. Check out picture #25.
Actually, the more I am thinking about this, the rules make sense. To properly set a plastic charge to blow up a wall you probably need to spend some time/effort to do so (as compared to say, pulling a pin and tossing a grenade). That could be represented by using a 3 or 4 shoot order versus a 1.
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
super, i´ll try that next time.
-
Marc Mistiaen
Spain
Torrelavega
Cantabria
-
Also, critical hits are worth three points of damage when targetting walls and obstacles.
-
piscesfish
United States
Royal Oak
Michigan
-
In all of my sessions in this game, a plastic explosive (or pretty much any other explosive) has never had a hard time destroying a wall. I think I saw it fail once on an unlucky roll. As said above, criticals count as 3 points of damage to walls and cover objects.
As for the power of guns, I think its balanced just right for this game. Most volleys against a normal opponent will do a point of damage or so, if you're lucky or pour it on you can get more. When characters have
-
Roderic Sisk
United States
Washington
-
Corwin1980 wrote: Also, critical hits are worth three points of damage when targetting walls and obstacles.
Yeah, I wonder if this was missed along with not rolling defense for ranged damage.
Also, in my limited experience, Vasquez with a sniper rifle kills most things she has in her cross hairs in a couple shots.
-
Oskar-Jan Alukim
of mind..
-
TedW wrote: Nope. Check out picture #25.
Actually, the more I am thinking about this, the rules make sense. To properly set a plastic charge to blow up a wall you probably need to spend some time/effort to do so (as compared to say, pulling a pin and tossing a grenade). That could be represented by using a 3 or 4 shoot order versus a 1.
wooha!!.. how can you 'pour it on' on explosives w/timing? they're set via interact (not Shoot) order, so more CPs do rise only 'setup' chances.. not a damage itself!
check tahat pic.#25.. it says only about shooting (and not interaction), even if the consequence is explosion (grenade launcher)..
I played that wrong as well..but afaik, no pour it on bombz..
(I hope I'm wrong, cos that would change a lot in a nice way heh)
E:I was refering to plastic explosive, mines, time-bomb and others that are used via interact..of course bazooka, g.launcher, granades etc are different case cos they are used via Shoot order.. just to make it clear:)
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
spokosin wrote: TedW wrote: Nope. Check out picture #25.
Actually, the more I am thinking about this, the rules make sense. To properly set a plastic charge to blow up a wall you probably need to spend some time/effort to do so (as compared to say, pulling a pin and tossing a grenade). That could be represented by using a 3 or 4 shoot order versus a 1. wooha!!.. how can you 'pour it on' on explosives w/timing? they're set via interact (not Shoot) order, so more CPs do rise only 'setup' chances.. not a damage itself! check tahat pic.#25.. it says only about shooting (and not interaction), even if the consequence is explosion (grenade launcher).. I played that wrong as well..but afaik, no pour it on bombz.. (I hope I'm wrong, cos that would change a lot in a nice way heh) E:I was refering to plastic explosive, mines, time-bomb and others that are used via interact..of course bazooka, g.launcher, granades etc are different case cos they are used via Shoot order.. just to make it clear
that is what I was thinkiong. ergo the wal stands most of the time. 
-
Oskar-Jan Alukim
of mind..
-
superjosef wrote: that is what I was thinkiong. ergo the wal stands most of the time. :(
guess you are referring to scenario#4. .in this case (and any other later) the key is to place the explosive time bomb on a square surrounded by as many walls as possible (2 at least!) Don't forget to roll on each 'target'....10 hits on 6dice is on the edge, no certainty..but rarely none of 2 or 3 walls stands that, in my experience ;)
GL&ER4EVER!:)
-
Fritz Mulnar
Germany
Nuremberg
Bavaria
-
very good idea, that. Not very thematic, but good idea nonetheless. more walls definetly up the chance of braking one.
but, as I said before, my main gripe was to be a litle misguided by the names of equipmewnt, implieing more or deadlier/destructive use as given by the game.
-
Roderic Sisk
United States
Washington
-
navajas wrote: Corwin1980 wrote: Also, critical hits are worth three points of damage when targetting walls and obstacles. Yeah, I wonder if this was missed along with not rolling defense for ranged damage. Also, in my limited experience, Vasquez with a sniper rifle kills most things she has in her cross hairs in a couple shots.
After two more plays under my belt I'm going to reverse my implication above by agreeing: Ranged combat, as of our last, and during limited, play (scenario 6) seems decidedly weak.
As for the balance being mentioned above, I do not find it. So far there's no weapon I'd rather have than Titanium Claws. Though the map is huge on the table it seems quite small in application. Most characters can vastly improve their tactical position in a single activation, in the scope of the game, instantly. Couple that with usually having to choose between hit percentage or meaningful damage, AND, if erring on the side of actually hurting your target, potentially wasting quite significant Command Points, you've got a system that seems to greatly reward bringing a knife to a gun fight.
I should make the following disclosure a sig line or something: I fully admit that this game is very deep and after four plays my experiences are not comprehensive and therefore could very well be insignificant to forming a useful opinion.
-
|
|
Posted Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:12 pm
