Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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Geek Chat Leagues are micro-communities within BGG that promote discussion among a smaller group of people; the idea is that familiarity and clumping of likeminded people will promote a more useful form of conversation. For more info, please refer to the resources listed in Geek Chat Leagues -- micro-communities within BGG.
The Amoeba GCL has recently seen a number of religious/political conversations that are welcomed by some but not all members. I'd rather not just drop some of these topics, so I'll try to give them a home here. (It's an experiment, we shall see whether it works.)
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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garygarison wrote: Morganza wrote: I've chosen *not* to buy a religious microbadge -- does that make me less of a Jew? No, but sporting a yarmulke microbadge would peg you as being a Jew. A very odd one in your case, being a woman and all, but still.
These days, if I go to synagogue at all, I do wear a kippah, and generally a tallit. I would have never dreamed of this as a girl -- when I was growing up my denomination (US Conservative, something partway between traditional Orthodox and what most of the world knows as Liberal Judaism) was still a long way from gender equality or even parity.
I never had a Bat Mitzva -- the coming-of-age ceremony I was offered at age 12 was a chance to chant the week's Haftarah (the portion from the Prophets paired thematically with each week's Torah portion) on a Friday night (it's generally read on Saturday morning after the Torah reading) from a book, not a scroll, and with no blessings recited before or after (since a girl doing it didn't count towards any religious obligations.) I declined the "honor".
Since then I've led services, been called to the Torah, read Torah, worn a kippah and Tallit to do so, and performed many other mitzvot... but I've never read a Haftarah. Maybe for my 52nd birthday.
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peter mumford
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
ceci n'est pas une pipe
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garygarison wrote: Do you exhibit the same detachment in real What is a yarmulke if not a little microbadge on someone's head?
I'd say a yarmulke is larger than a microbadge, closer to the wide badge on top of the avatar. Uber-badge?
clearclaw wrote: Is it a claim of devoutness? Political or cultural alignment? Cultural background without belief or adherence? An attempt to get dates with Jewish girls? A piece of affected costume? Some mix of all or any of those or something else entirely? My thought on seeing someone wearing a yarmulke is, Yup, they are wearing a yarmulke. Huh.
My first thought is: He takes his judaism seriously (its a men-only thing, right?). I guess that involves displaying one's judaism.
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peter mumford
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
ceci n'est pas une pipe
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Morganza wrote: These days, if I go to synagogue at all, I do wear a kippah, and generally a tallit.
So, you are comfortable with religious dress in the temple, mainly, but not for going around town, or to game night, for example. Makes total sense to me. And thus the lack of religious microbadge for a boardgame site.
For myself, I'm not quite sure if I'm agnostic or not. Back when I was smoking a lot of pot and going to a lot of yoga I got heavily into the Hindu pantheon though..
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Morganza wrote: These days, if I go to synagogue at all, I do wear a kippah, and generally a tallit.
Is this a recent phenomenon, females wearing kippah/yarmulke?
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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garygarison wrote: Morganza wrote: These days, if I go to synagogue at all, I do wear a kippah, and generally a tallit. Is this a recent phenomenon, females wearing kippah/yarmulke?
I don't think so. While I'm Orthodox, it makes sense for non-Orthodox communities. If a talit or a kipa is primarily worn only at beit kenset, then it becomes no longer an ordinary everyday garment. This divorces it from intrinsic genderedness.
So to me, a kipa or a talit is just as much a man's garment as all my other clothes with a men's style cut. If however one doesn't think of a kipa or a telit that way, then why shouldn't a woman wear one?
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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whac3 wrote: garygarison wrote: Morganza wrote: These days, if I go to synagogue at all, I do wear a kippah, and generally a tallit. Is this a recent phenomenon, females wearing kippah/yarmulke? I don't think so. While I'm Orthodox, it makes sense for non-Orthodox communities. If a talit or a kipa is primarily worn only at beit kneset, then it becomes no longer an ordinary everyday garment. This divorces it from intrinsic genderedness. So to me, a kipa or a talit is just as much a man's garment as all my other clothes with a men's style cut. If however one doesn't think of a kipa or a talit that way, then why shouldn't a woman wear one?
(Please note: while Moshe and I are both Jewish, we do have a fair number of theological differences.)
When I was growing up, I knew a few men or boys who wore a kippah all the time, but mostly they were only worn at meals, when studying Torah (and by extension other religious subjects), or during prayers. Married women covered their heads during services with a symbolic lacy covering, perhaps a small macrame "chapel hat". I remember one time when my mother forgot hers, and folded a kippah in half to pin to her head, to make it clear that she was following the female tradition and not the male one.
And please note that the decision to wear a kippah was not completely personal -- my parents grew up at a time when businesses and universities wanted to limit visible Jewish presence, when quotas put limits on how many Jews were allowed in to begin with.
At Camp Ramah in the mid-70s there was one woman who wore a tallit and kipah at services (and I think tefillin, too, just like Rashi's daughters), and I thought that was an audacious and controversial thing for her to do. However, the trend towards more egalitarian religious practices was starting.
When my niece Naama had her Bat Mitzva in 2003 I had an aliya during the service; not only was it the first time I'd had an aliya in a "real" synagogue (as opposed to a summer camp or Jewish youth event), I was told that I would need to wear a talit to go up on the bima; my father showed me how to put one on properly before the service. I remember thinking at the time that 30 years ago he would not have helped a woman put on a talit. I did borrow a chapel hat from my mother for the event. At the time I still thought of kippot as a distinctively male part of religious practice.
These days, though -- I don't belong to a synagogue, I attend very rqarely, but at my sister's shul, some of the women are bare-headed, some wear kippot, and I have never seen a woman wear a chapel hat there. The ladies there wear some of the most beautiful and feminine talleisim that I have ever seen...
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Paul Clarke
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
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garygarison wrote: clearclaw wrote: My thought on seeing someone wearing a yarmulke is, Yup, they are wearing a yarmulke. Huh. OK, let's take it from another angle. Someone wearing a swastika lapel pin.
A Swastika has a much narrower meaning, at least in the modern western world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Contemporary_use_in_As...
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Paul Clarke
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
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Original thread:
http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/117741/item/2005264#item20...
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Edward Rustin
United Kingdom
London
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garygarison wrote: Morganza wrote: These days, if I go to synagogue at all, I do wear a kippah, and generally a tallit. Is this a recent phenomenon, females wearing kippah/yarmulke?
Within my community, it's probably something that started happening within the last fifteen years or so.
For context, I identify with the Mazorti movement. It's somewhat alike the Conservative movement in the US, but slanted slightly more towards Orthodoxy - at least from my own observations. Being, in the UK, a movement which was founded on a very Orthodox base in terms of practice (albeit with some some significant philosophical differences), it's generally been quite traditional in terms of gender roles - men and women sitting separately, women not being counted as part of a minyan etc.
At least from what I've seen, the move towards more women wearing kippot and tallit came at the same time as the question of egalitarianism starting being discussed within the community, and as more shuls within the community became (partly or wholly) egalitarian, women started to wear them as way of taking away their association with a particular gender.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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elemental wrote: At least from what I've seen, the move towards more women wearing kippot and tallit came at the same time as the question of egalitarianism starting being discussed within the community
That's an interesting difference -- I saw women widely (though not universally) counted to the minyan a few decades before they started wearing kippot and talleisim in any noticeable numbers. I'm curious why our communities are different.
(For anyone still reading who is confused, a minyan is the quorum of 10 required to have a full service.)
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Edward Rustin
United Kingdom
London
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Morganza wrote: I'm curious why our communities are different.
Historical differences perhaps? If I recall, the Conservative movement was founded as a response to the reform movement, while the Mazorti movement was founded as a response to Orthodoxy. I do know that what's encompassed by the Conservative movement is broader covers some of what would be Reform in the UK. While there's a lot of philosophical overlap, there's differences in practice and approach for sure.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
-
The Conservative movement in the US covers a broad umbrella indeed, especially since most contentious issues are left to the discretion of each individual congregation. It was, in fact, founded a mere 100 years ago as a reaction to a Reform movement that many people felt had gone too far from traditional roots.
Halachically, I tell people that Orthodox and Conservative Judaism come from the same source code, but that Orthodox Judaism is statically linked while Conservative Judaism is dynamically linked. :-)
Reform is different -- they do not consider Halacha binding. However, there is a growing trend among a certain cluster of Reform Jews to adopt traditional practices (such as Kashrut) because they find meaning and value in it.
Reconstructionist Judaism is yet a fourth branch -- they consider Judaism a culture with an optional religious component.
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Lynette
United States
Richland
Washington
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
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Morganza wrote: The ladies there wear some of the most beautiful and feminine talleisim that I have ever seen...
M roommate's daughter just Bat Mitzva'd last month. Her tallis is beautiful. She cross stitched part of it for months before the service.
I agree there are some really lovely ones to be seen at our local synagogue.
I as a non-Jew always feel a bit uncertain of what to do for a head covering when I attend. (Which I do a few times a year for various reasons with my friends) I am not married so the lacy covering seems out of place, and a "hat" seems really not appropriate. I am not all that fond of the kippah option since I am a woman, though for the Bar/Bat Mitzvas I usually wear one because the kids are so excited about the ones they "chose" to be the commemorative keep sakes, it seems a shame to not please them by wearing them.
So I often go with a full decorative scarf or solid shawl to put over my hair.
I do always enjoy the experience though. I genuinely enjoy the services.
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peter mumford
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
ceci n'est pas une pipe
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There was an article in the NYT about a divide in Israeli society between secular and ultra-orthodox jews in regard to the rights of women:
Israelis Facing a Seismic Rift Over Role of Women.
One would hope that there is also a thriving middle ground where religious life and equality can both exist. I cannot understand why among the ultra orthodox women are not allowed on stage, apparently for any reason.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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photocurio wrote: I cannot understand why among the ultra orthodox women are not allowed on stage, apparently for any reason.
The voice of a woman is so overpoweringly erotic that women are not allowed to sing in public for fear that it will incite unseemly behavior among men. Or something.
Do note that as the polarization grows the restrictions on female behavior and other things get stricter and stricter. A hundred years ago nobody would have considered limiting women to all-female workplaces, for example, and many of history's notable rabbis had accomplished secular careers alongside their religious studies.
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Edward Rustin
United Kingdom
London
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Things have got a lot worse in that regard over the last decade or so I think.
When I spent a year in Israel after high-school, I don't recall there being the same level of tension outside of a few very ultra-orthodox areas. I think that in the time being the ultra-orthodox have become increasingly prone to radicalisation and the extreme right wing side of the community has become more powerful. Add in their increasing marginalization in society (Israel is becoming increasingly secular) (and they're overly powerful politically, but Israel politics is all kinds of fucked up anyway) and resentment from large portions of the population since they don't generally serve in the army, and large portions of the ultra-orthodox community don't work, but instead get effectively subsidised by the government to study Torah all day, as well as another host of issues around any peace talks and the right-wing position that Israel should never give up any parts of the West Bank, and you've got a pretty good recipe for tension there.
My 2 shekels of course 
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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photocurio wrote: There was an article in the NYT about a divide in Israeli society between secular and ultra-orthodox jews in regard to the rights of women: Israelis Facing a Seismic Rift Over Role of Women. One would hope that there is also a thriving middle ground where religious life and equality can both exist. I cannot understand why among the ultra orthodox women are not allowed on stage, apparently for any reason.
Of course there is. I'm charedi, which the media insists on calling "ultra-Orthodox", but I and most others strongly oppose things like segregated buses. We have successfully resisted all efforts to introduce them into our neighborhood and indeed I kno they exist but have never seen them. My rabanim vocally and adamantly oppose any lesser roles for women or denial of rights for women.
Morganza and I might disagree that counting women in a men's minyan is unfair. (Simply men and women do not have the same level of obligation.) From what I've seen though, that is one of our few differences on these matters.
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Edward Rustin
United Kingdom
London
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Of course, the Orthodox movement has plenty of subsets of it's own!
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
-
whac3 wrote: Morganza and I might disagree that counting women in a men's minyan is unfair. (Simply men and women do not have the same level of obligation.)
The original justification for the gender divide, as I was always taught it, was that "woman's work" in the home was generally more time-sensitive and did not allow for the obligation for prayers. That made a lot more sense in a time and place where canonical male and female roles were more rigid. (Who should have more obligation for prayers, a professional businesswoman or her homemaker husband tasked with the raising of the family's small children?)
Another justification I heard was that women are, by their nature, more spiritual, and only men need the supporting framework of regular prayer to draw closer to G-d. (That one never made much sense to me.)
Back when the idea of counting women to the minyan was new and controversial in the Conservative movement (circa 1985), there was a serious proposal that women should only be counted if they had individually and personally accepted the obligation for daily prayers (even if they fell short of meeting it, just the willful choice to accept the obligation was thought to be enough.) If a strange woman visited your shul, you would ask her if she counted to the minyan in the same way that one might ask a visiting boy if he were above or below the age of Bar Mitzva.
I think that would have proven far too divisive; I do prefer the simplicity of counting all Jewish adults, even if I was originally uncomfortable with it.
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Edward Rustin
United Kingdom
London
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Morganza wrote: Another justification I heard was that women are, by their nature, more spiritual, and only men need the supporting framework of regular prayer to draw closer to G-d. (That one never made much sense to me.)
I was taught that they're more spiritual because they create life. I justification I suppose I can understand, even if I don't agree with.
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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Morganza wrote: whac3 wrote: Morganza and I might disagree that counting women in a men's minyan is unfair. (Simply men and women do not have the same level of obligation.) The original justification for the gender divide, as I was always taught it, was that "woman's work" in the home was generally more time-sensitive and did not allow for the obligation for prayers. That made a lot more sense in a time and place where canonical male and female roles were more rigid. (Who should have more obligation for prayers, a professional businesswoman or her homemaker husband tasked with the raising of the family's small children?) Another justification I heard was that women are, by their nature, more spiritual, and only men need the supporting framework of regular prayer to draw closer to G-d. (That one never made much sense to me.) Back when the idea of counting women to the minyan was new and controversial in the Conservative movement (circa 1985), there was a serious proposal that women should only be counted if they had individually and personally accepted the obligation for daily prayers (even if they fell short of meeting it, just the willful choice to accept the obligation was thought to be enough.) If a strange woman visited your shul, you would ask her if she counted to the minyan in the same way that one might ask a visiting boy if he were above or below the age of Bar Mitzva. I think that would have proven far too divisive; I do prefer the simplicity of counting all Jewish adults, even if I was originally uncomfortable with it.
I don't know who taught it that way, but they have no sources to back them up. The separate roles of women and men are solely because men and women have distinct obligations in terms of mitzvot.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States
Sunnyvale
California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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whac3 wrote: The separate roles of women and men are solely because men and women have distinct obligations in terms of mitzvot.
The roles of men and women are separate merely because men and women are different? That's what it sounds like to me.
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peter mumford
United States
Somerville
Massachusetts
ceci n'est pas une pipe
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Morganza wrote: Do note that as the polarization grows the restrictions on female behavior and other things get stricter and stricter.
I see this sort of radicalization, which is associated with fundamentalism, or the literal interpretation of scripture, in Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism. Its like its coded into the human genome. I'm not aware of extreme fundamentalist Buddhists but they may exist.
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photocurio wrote: I'm not aware of extreme fundamentalist Buddhists but they may exist.
Some Nichiren schools in Japan might qualify. And then there's the New Kadampa Tradition.
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