lingwei ko
Singapore
This is not the clue you are looking for.
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Just like almost everyone else on BGG that is not brain dead, I was pulled in by the hype surrounding 7 Wonders. I was fortunate enough to receive this game as part of BGG Secret Santa, and I've managed to get in a couple of plays in the month or so since Christmas. All my points below are observations from these few plays, so may not be entirely representative of the experience others will have.
That being said, I don't really 'get' the game. And neither does my regular game group, whom I would consider medium gamers - we mostly prefer lighter games like TTR, although we aren't averse to a game of Puerto Rico or Power Grid from time to time.
With all that preamble done, this is what we find wrong with 7 Wonders:
- Its wayyyyyy too fiddly. In so many ways. People had to spend inordinate amounts of time calculating coins, victory points, resources. And this is not even considering the time we spent at the end of the game figuring out who won.
- That cheat sheet at the back of the rulebook sees far too much use. Even during subsequent plays we had to keep checking back to remind ourselves what each of the icons means. "Okay, so I get 1 coin and 1 victory point for each gold card I have. No wait, its each gold card my left and right neighbor has. Or is it all three of us???"
- I can see how for a serious gamer group the pass and draft mechanic can 'work'. But when you are playing to relax after a long day, you don't really want to be stuck figuring what cards work to the advantage of the next couple of players and which card works best for you and to choose the 'best' card to draft. My group isn't usually prone to analysis paralysis, but it did happen quite a few times during our sessions.
- Other than the drafting, buying resources and the 3 instances of military interaction, I don't really see the interactive aspect of the game. All too often it felt like choose the best card from hand, pass, rinse, repeat. If I happened to get a military card I could afford, I would check my neighbor's levels of military and decide if I needed to build it or not. Zero interaction with players who were not my left and right neighbors (playing in a group of 6).
- The theme feels totally tacked on. The 7 "wonders" seems to be an afterthought, and (even the rulebook says so!) you can get by without even completing a wonder. Which we didn't really 'get' - you would imagine a game called 7 Wonders would be about racing to be the first to build your wonder, or the best wonder, or something along those lines. 7 City-States would be more accurate.
Are we doing something wrong, or missing something, or is this the real 7 Wonders experience? I managed to convince my group to give this game a chance but even I am rather close to giving up on it...
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I don't want to be rude, but is it really so much to calculate (2g per resource) ? How can you play Power Grid then ?
About analysis paralysis - that's a fair point. In my opinion this is NOT an easy game. If people playing it aren't experienced in it, than it's almost completely random in determining the winner. You have to play a lot of it to understand what's beneficial and what's not. I've also seen 3 people that after those 30 minutes we're tired, bored and simply didn't get it. 3 out of a 100, roughly counting...
Out of that 100 people that I learned to play pretty much no one used the cheatsheet. I guess the snag is to go through most of the cards before the game. After a short intro and at most 2 plays, all of the icons are self-explanatory and no one ever asks a question.
My opinion - just sell it. Your group won't like it. You're that 3 people out of a 100 
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This is the real 7 Wonders experience.
It's a filler-level thinker with lots to fiddle with and heaps of indirect 'interaction'.
This is a very popular set of notions at this site. Lots of people enjoy it, but stop worrying about the hype machine. It's driven by a vocal majority that is narrower than most game groups.
They just happen to be to be the dominant type of poster at this site. Nothing wrong with it, just don't feel your perceptions are wrong.
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Paul King
United Kingdom
Cambridge
Unspecified
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I don't think it's that fiddly. The card iconography is mostly clear, with only a few that cause any confusion at all (e.g. there are arrows to show which players are counted). Wonder icons are a bit worse and Leaders does lead to a lot of consulting the rule book to find out what some leaders do.
Resources are only likely to be a problem with poor organisation of the tableaux.
VPs are only officially added up at the end. If you want to count up everybody else's during play that's not necessarily a fault in the game.
It isn't highly interactive, but then neither is Puerto Rico. And really that's one of the reasons that it can support seven players without too much downtime (one of the pluses of the game in my book).
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Jason Webster
United States
Connecticut
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My group of 7 find this a good game. It has even moved passed filler and become THE game we play that night. After 4 plays, the cheatsheet wasn't used anymore.
You are overthinking things a bit, IMO. 9 out of 10 times, the best card to take is the one that helps you not the one that your neighbours need. If you want hate drafting, then pick up a copy of Fairy Tale :)
Your game experience is highly dependant on how your two neighbours are playing. Make sure betwen yourself and them that you have enough resources to build your wonders, and cards you want to draft. If you are going military , make sure you have wood , stone, and ore. Ect..
Most of all, relax and have fun :)
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Rick Teverbaugh
United States
Anderson
Indiana
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Pretty simple, easy to learn and play right out of the box for my group. We don't find it fiddly, boring or complex. There is virtually no down time since everyone chooses and reveals at the same time. It lives up to all of the hype.
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Eric Hymowitz
United States
Elkridge
Maryland
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elleana wrote: - That cheat sheet at the back of the rulebook sees far too much use. Even during subsequent plays we had to keep checking back to remind ourselves what each of the icons means. "Okay, so I get 1 coin and 1 victory point for each gold card I have. No wait, its each gold card my left and right neighbor has. Or is it all three of us???"
The more you play, the less you will have this problem. Now, the only thing I need to refer to the cheat-sheet for is the German/English translations.
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J. Alex Kevern
United States
Chicago
Illinois
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Certainly a fair opinion, but I disagree on a number of counts. First, the theme is actually very well done if you take the time to appreciate the cards. The theme isn't building wonders of the world, it's civilization building, part of which can be building a wonder if you choose.
In my opinion, the Civ building is very well done. The resource costs of many of the cards are intuitive (Walls cost 3 blocks; Schools a wood and a Papyrus), as well as the building chains (Scriptorium leads to Courthouse or Library, which leads to Senate or University).
Additionally, there is A LOT of strategy, and a lot of which requires you pay attention to what every other player at the table is doing. In a 3 or 4 player game, you will always see cards from the first few hands you receive again. Optimizing your choices will require accurately predicting what cards your opponents will select in order to determine what card to take now, and what card to take next time the cards come around to you. Going to tuck a card under your wonder? Pay attention not only to the cards needed by the person you're passing to, but by the person who is in the best position to win. All of these require indirect interaction with individuals not immediately to your left and right.
Finally, see this post for heaps of 7 wonders strategy you may be missing: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/691370/some-complex-strategi...
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Adam 314
United States
Ohio
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As others have said, I think that this game continues to grow and develop as the players at the table become more experienced. The iconography becomes more second nature and the game play picks up in speed as people develop or decide on strategies they want to play.
Regarding player interaction, it is indeed an indirect interaction between players, but I find that only paying attention to your direct neighbors will sometimes leave you high and dry - you also have to pay attention to what their neighbors are up to. I can remember a game or two where somebody (myself one of them) didn't build many brown resources because my neighbors needed them so I figured they would build them and I could borrow, and I could build grey and they would borrow. Next thing I know, they're building grey and not brown and I'm left with hardly any trading commerce - turns out their neighbors also needed brown and I got left out of the economy by not planning for the whole table and only my neighbors. Not something that will happen all the time, but knowing that your neighbor's neighbor effects their decisions will ultimately help you better predict their actions and needs.
I do have to disagree with the in game fiddling and vp calculation: one thing I like about the game is that calculating in vp's in game is so intensive that if forces people to play the game a little off the cuff and go with estimations and their gut feeling for what will work. I can see how that could be an issue if there is a few people at the table who feel pressed to min/max every move down to the exact vp's though - that would cause some serious analysis paralysis.
Anyway - I say give it another play or three and see if your group hits more of a rhythm with it and ends up liking it. I hope they do, because I know that I enjoy the game - but if they don't, then try to trade it for something more enjoyable for your group. It's a good game, but I can see how it's not for everybody.
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Morgan Dontanville
United States
Brooklyn
New York
Plate of Shrimp.
Here we are folks, the dream we all dream of.
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You haven't missed anything, it just didn't work for you. You should sell it. It doesn't work with your group, and your time would be better spent on games that everyone enjoys. There are tons of other games to play.
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V L
United States
Virginia
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Within the first 5 to 10 plays I didn't really understand some of the depth in the game. For example, little things like "if I play this resource card then it'll help me and my neighbors will want to pay me for it."
Counting points mid game? We count at the end. I do evaluate cards in my hand for potential point value at the end but I try not to spend more than 10 seconds on each play.
The theme actually makes sense to me. You have opportunities come your way. You choose one and pass on the others because you only have so much time. Race for the galaxy and San Juan also have that "theme". In 7 wonders, your neighbors get the opportunities you passed on.
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Andrew P
United States
San Francisco
California
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elleana wrote: Just like almost everyone else on BGG that is not brain dead, I was pulled in by the hype surrounding 7 Wonders.
Think you have this around the wrong way...
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Jean-Philippe Thériault
Canada
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Sure the BGG crowd loves 7 Wonders, but saying they're a vocal minority seems completely off. If anything, I think the number of people who dislike 7W are actually over represented on BGG. I've played it with Magic:TG Pro Tour players (one friend used to pay rent by playing Magic Online drafts). I've played it with non-gamers/casual gamers. It was universally well-liked. By bringing it over as a filler for other game nights, I've personally caused 3 different people to purchase their own copies.
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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You're not missing anything. Heck, you're almost at a review, there.
With 6+ players, you're not going to get your hand back. Or, rather, it's unlikely that you'll get your hand back with *cards you want*. So the strategy becomes card denial of your next neighbor. Wheee...
Try the game with the suggested four or even fewer players. Since you get your hand back, you'll want to deny your opponent optimal cards while setting up your strategy suchthat he will still pass good cards back to you.
You're asking this question on the 7 Wonders forum, so, of course, you're going to hear "it's a good game" responses. I didn't like the game, but I dislike Eurogames in general, set collection games in specific, and am "meh" with drafting mechanics.
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Fenômeno
United States
Fitchburg
Wisconsin
Button Soccer
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Nice review, sorry the game didn't work for you. I am not a big fan myself but I actually think the theme is very well implemented all things considered. the iconography takes one game to learn and some people take two games before understanding science scoring. While it is not a great gateway game for this reason, it is excellent because no other game with this depth accommodates seven people and plays in less than 1 hour.
I like your thoughtful post.
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Chad Miller
United States
Pullman
Washington
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Count me as also mystified that someone can like Power Grid and think this is too complicated. The entire reason I don't play PG is because I have to do so much arithmetic that has to be done during my own turn that I feel like I'm holding up the game, only to find that if I attempt to speed up my play at all I start suddenly being $1 short of being able to buy things. I freely admit that this is possibly because I've been drafting M:tG for going on 10 years though... Also, I can't help but mention that your third and fourth point appear to contradict each other.
All of that said, I also agree with the comments that 4 players is about right for this game. 3 is decent too. More than that and it does feel like just crossing your fingers and hoping you get the cards you want.
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lingwei ko
Singapore
This is not the clue you are looking for.
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Thanks everyone for their replies and points of view / opinions. I do want to like 7 Wonders, but I find myself to be in the minority here... Will try with 3 or 4, but as my game group usually has more not sure when that will be.
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XDarkAngelX wrote: If anything, I think the number of people who dislike 7W are actually over represented on BGG.
How does this make any sense? What's the evidence?
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David Wilson
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
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Alex Brown wrote: XDarkAngelX wrote: If anything, I think the number of people who dislike 7W are actually over represented on BGG. How does this make any sense? What's the evidence?
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I'm not asking for statistics.
When someone gives a counter to the prevailing opinion, I would have thought there was a reason.
It's possible that opinion on the Internet doesn't just have to be ephemera. It can actually be reasonable too.
Come on 
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Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
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Alex Brown wrote: How does this make any sense? What's the evidence?
Let's examine his statement for evidence!
XDarkAngelX wrote: If anything, I think the number of people who dislike 7W are actually over represented on BGG.
OK, here is his thesis statement, but can he back it up?
XDarkAngelX wrote: I've played it with Magic:TG Pro Tour players (one friend used to pay rent by playing Magic Online drafts).
OK, so he has played it with some professional gamers...
XDarkAngelX wrote: I've played it with non-gamers/casual gamers.
Aha! And he has played it with casual gamers too! Both ends of the spectrum. But what did they think about it? Shouldn't he tell us that??
XDarkAngelX wrote: It was universally well-liked.
Hot damn, he did! So from his experience, everyone from professional board game players to non gamers has universally liked this game! Literally everyone he has played it with has liked it! Why, if literally everyone I ever played it with universally liked it (which is also true by the way, including two newbies just last night), then I might conclude that as evidence that all the people disliking it on BSG were over represented.
XDarkAngelX wrote: By bringing it over as a filler for other game nights, I've personally caused 3 different people to purchase their own copies.
And here we go, the final piece of the puzzle. Any time people directly go and purchase the game, you know that they're enjoying it. I say we've got ourselves some evidence, folks!
It truly is astounding what you can do when you actually bother to read what people write before forming your opinion.
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No I read it.
I don't doubt his story. It's awesome. I love MTG players. Known many in my days. Nice stuff.
What I am bothered by is his claim that the detractors to 7 Wonders' rise in popularity are over-represented at this site.
It is flabbergasting to me that on a forum I can't ask someone to explain their opinion
It is truly astounding what you can do when you actually bother to read what people write before forming your opinion.
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Roland W. est. 1984
Germany
Unterriexingen
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You got it. It sucks and was just hyped the right way^^...
serious. We do not get it at all. To less interaction and "borought" mechanisms from collective card games... boring
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Matt Downey
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
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You can certainly ask him to explain his opinion, I'm just responding to your question of "where is the evidence" with pointing out that he did, in fact, put his evidence for why he has that opinion in his original statement.
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I'm probably coming on too strong.
Maybe you enjoy sarcasm more than the average man.
Either way, I'll drop it .
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