Greg Gresik
United States
Bolingbrook
Illinois
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Well, first let me state that I did not buy Agricola – and for that I am thankful, as the $50-$60 (which seems oddly high for a game with average components) will be better spent somewhere else. Now, I must also confess that I have read many a positive thought on Agricola, so perhaps my expectations were simply too high (although I had done basically the same with Puerto Rico and wasn’t nearly as disappointed).
Many of you by this point know the basics of the game, so I will get right to what I didn’t like about it instead of boring you with details about things you have likely already read or are already aware. I will try to take them in numerical order in which I encountered them
1) Theme. I know – this seems like weak sauce – criticize a game for it’s theme? No, just the fact that the theme seems was awkwardly “gamey” at best. Not pasted on per se – simply put, we weren’t “feeling it”. I also felt odd typing this, because I have no problem with abstracts (Qwirkle, Blokus, etc – are all fairly popular in our family games) and even “weak-themed” games (Palazzo, Citadels, etc.) have been popular in our game group.
2) Components. They were simply fine. I really don’t have a problem with them, but for $50-$60 I was expecting a bit more. Again, I didn’t pay for the game so I wasn’t basing it on that aspect of things – just a little “underwhelmed” by wooden blocks and circles painted in primary colors and boards (which were drab green) and cards – none of which was offensive to the eyes or hands…merely “meh”. Yes, I realize the game is about farming, which may not be colorful or interesting, but the game needn’t be drab or mundane simply because the subject matter of the theme may be. The components are abstract in shape/color and thus do not lend themselves to the theme all that well. But again – I could look past that – in many other Euros I do.
3) I am always willing to overlook the above, presuming the game itself holds up. So let’s get started…no…wait…we have to setup. This should just take…a LONG time. Setup is long. We had about 90 minutes to try out Agricola – and spent a good third of it setting up. Now, coming from a wargamer of sorts and someone who like Puerto Rico, you would think this wouldn’t be a big deal. But it was rather lengthy. Again, I can forgive this type of negative start if the game holds up.
4) Rules. Long, awkward and HEAVY. A great deal here to plow through (no pun intended…well, okay…). Again, being a wargamer and having seen some pretty complex rules in my day, I thought we would be okay – the glory of one BGG’s top offering would come shining through in the end…
5) Game play. I am not going to call it “multi-player solitaire”, mainly because it’s not. But one thing seemed to come to the fore – there seems to be little interaction and the few times someone “hinders” you it’s almost accidental. They are more optimizing their own position – hindering another player occasionally is a mere coincidence. The few times it can be intentional is almost annoying, simply for the fact that the opportunity to “return the favor” will likely not arrive. As such the interaction is just odd – it’s a little too much for a “personal optimization” game or too little for true a “interactive” experience in a typical game.
6) Down time. Well, if you like time to go get something to eat or drink or just shoot the breeze with others (assuming they are not AP-ing at the table) – you’ve got it. Down time is pretty high. Nothing like sitting and waiting – only to realize what you had planned to do has to change.
7) Learning Curve. I touched on this in a way with the rules – but Agricola is just plain “fiddly” in every sense of the word you can think of – rules, set-up, tear down, scoring. It’s just too much work – and not enough payoff in the game itself.
8) “Stress”. This seemed odd to me for a game. Not only did the game feel “stressful”, it was in many ways (again – rules, set-up, scoring) “work”. I want to play a game to play…enjoy…relax. Now, don’t get me wrong – thinking, planning, plotting – those are all fun. But at times Agricola wasn’t any of those – just work.
Conclusion: Agricola might very well be enjoyed by many – it must be given it’s high rating. But for me and our group, it was simply too fiddly and too much “work” for what was too little in enjoyment. A few weeks later we played Age of Discovery – and it went over much better. And please, don’t reply to tell me we have to work through it – it gets better once you become more familiar with the game. For one, I don’t think that there is realistically any chance that that will be the case. Second, we have found that our first impressions are usually pretty reliable for our group – we have played enough games to realize what “works” for us and doesn’t. Agricola is just too much “work” to work.
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Ben
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
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Although my experiences in a few areas -- in particular setup and downtime -- have differed markedly from your own, I will heartily endorse the view that Agricola is unlikely to work for people who dislike stressful games.
The stress you describe in Agricola is one of the reasons I love it, and one of my primary motivations in gaming more generally. Indeed I struggle to fathom why anyone would ever want to play any game that isn't anxiety-inducing. But, if you do, the review is correct that Agricola is unlikely to be your cup of tea.
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Peter Cox
Bosnia & Herzegovina
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Your criticisms pretty much strike me as one I might have made on a first play for many games I consider to be my favourites. Yeah, sometimes you need to put in a bit of 'work' to learn a game, and downtime will be strong as people learn it, and it will seem fiddly.
Each to their own, but I find it a bit odd that someone would go to the effort of making a review after playing a game a single time. At 90 minutes, you can't have even gotten through a full game.
I guess, if at the end of the day, you find the mechanics stressful rather than fun, you might be right not to keep trying though. Each to their own. I personally find it quite relaxing 
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Plano boxes remove alot of the hassle with set up / tear down. I have two! HUGE TIME SAVER.
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To respond to just a few of your points -- and I'm not saying you're wrong for holding your opinions, just providing my own contrasting ones:
2) Components: I'm just curious what kind of quality you expect for a $50-60 game. The default components in the US release are very abstract; there's very slightly more representational components available but they cost extra. Since cost was a sticking point for you I doubt you'd find this appealing.
3) Setup: takes less time when you have more hands helping out. One player shuffles the occupations, another the minor improvements, a third lays the round cards and major improvements out, a fourth sets up the resources. Of course, having experience with the game will also make this much smoother.
4) Rules: this is one game where I really don't think anyone should play it without having an experienced player handy to get them up to speed. The rulebook is not very useful, sadly.
6) Downtime: this comes down to your group culture to some extent. Some players are more AP-prone than others, but if the group as a whole tries to push them along then you can keep things moving. Of course, players may not enjoy being pushed. It's very easy to have a single player's turn take several minutes, but you have to let it happen.
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Rob Duarte
United States
Largo
Florida
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I felt the same way as you after my first couple plays. Then a strange thing happened. I put it on the shelf and there it sat for the better part of 2 and a half years. It nearly made it out in a couple of trades but the stubborn bugger never budged and just sat there on my shelf. Then one day out of the blue I decided to give it another go. My wife and I played it again after that long stretch and we found for some reason we just enjoyed it way more. I'm not sure what it was, but I was glad I didn't get rid of it. Now I'm not suggesting you let the game simmer for two years and try it again..I'm just pointing out what my experience was.
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Matt Shinners
United States
New York
New York
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Derakon wrote:
4) Rules: this is one game where I really don't think anyone should play it without having an experienced player handy to get them up to speed. The rulebook is not very useful, sadly.
This is something I've never understood. I've managed to teach this game to my mother (who, though I love her, took about 10 minutes to understand Dixit) in about 15 minutes. Almost everything is written on the cards, with only a handful of rules you need to know to run the game. I've never had someone have any trouble picking this game up in a very short amount of time, including friends to whom I've handed the rulebook and left it at that.
And as far as the theme goes, I disagree, but that's definitely a personal thing. I love the feeling of building up a farm that I get from Agricola.
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S Marstiller
United States
Los Angeles
California
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Nikoms wrote: 8) “Stress”. This seemed odd to me for a game. Not only did the game feel “stressful”, it was in many ways (again – rules, set-up, scoring) “work”. I want to play a game to play…enjoy…relax. Now, don’t get me wrong – thinking, planning, plotting – those are all fun. But at times Agricola wasn’t any of those – just work.
My wife will rarely play Agricola or Le Havre with me for this very reason. She finds the whole feeding your people thing too stressful. I love both games though and am happy to say Ora Et Labora hits a lot of what I love about both without stressing her out about starving her people.
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Daniel Kearns
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
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Nikoms wrote:
4) Rules. Long, awkward and HEAVY.
This comment strikes me as a little unusual.
You put your person on a space and do what it says. At the end of a season you have to give up two food per person. Everything scores, the more the better. That's about it.
Maybe I've just always taught as we go.
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Curt Carpenter
United States
Washington
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marstiller wrote: My wife will rarely play Agricola or Le Havre with me for this very reason. She finds the whole feeding your people thing too stressful. I love both games though and am happy to say Ora Et Labora hits a lot of what I love about both without stressing her out about starving her people.
And that's why I don't like O&L as much as either of those two. The stress of feeding your people is the soul of the game, and the tension against the vp grab. Without it O&L feels lifeless. It's just a resource->vp engine.
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Dan Nunuyerbiznez
United States
Unspecified
Nevada
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chally wrote: Although my experiences in a few areas -- in particular setup and downtime -- have differed markedly from your own, I will heartily endorse the view that Agricola is unlikely to work for people who dislike stressful games.
The stress you describe in Agricola is one of the reasons I love it, and one of my primary motivations in gaming more generally. Indeed I struggle to fathom why anyone would ever want to play any game that isn't anxiety-inducing. But, if you do, the review is correct that Agricola is unlikely to be your cup of tea.
Let me just clarify that stress and anxiety are not the same as tension and excitement, though the physical manifestations may, indeed, be the same... The latter are to be sought out in games, the former indicate the game may not be right for those involved (as the author so clearly stated).
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Arthur Peterson
United States
Nashville
TN
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Oddly, my experience is the exact opposite on nearly all points. Great components, set-up in 2-3 mins, no downtime, love the theme (always feels very much like managing a farm/family). Get the Agricalc app for your iPhone and scoring is a snap. Almost endless replayability.
You're right on the stress level, though, but that's part of what makes it such a great game.
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Ben
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
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DnaDan56 wrote: chally wrote: Although my experiences in a few areas -- in particular setup and downtime -- have differed markedly from your own, I will heartily endorse the view that Agricola is unlikely to work for people who dislike stressful games.
The stress you describe in Agricola is one of the reasons I love it, and one of my primary motivations in gaming more generally. Indeed I struggle to fathom why anyone would ever want to play any game that isn't anxiety-inducing. But, if you do, the review is correct that Agricola is unlikely to be your cup of tea. Let me just clarify that stress and anxiety are not the same as tension and excitement, though the physical manifestations may, indeed, be the same... The latter are to be sought out in games, the former indicate the game may not be right for those involved (as the author so clearly stated).
It's a fair distinction, but I don't believe I said anything about tension and excitement. I said I love the stress of Agricola and struggle to understand why anyone would want to play a game that wasn't anxiety-inducing. Agricola is a stressful game. There are plenty of tense and exciting games that aren't.
The author doesn't like stressful games, and that's cool. I do. I suspect that we are all on the same page here.
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Jonathan C
United States
Iowa
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The game setup and tear-down was getting to be a bit too much for me, too. So we bought some $3 "bead" organizers and now it takes about 5 minutes. So that helped.
Fiddly, yes. Deep, no arguments there. Long turns, definitely happens several times each game. Learning curve? Yeah, a painful one. But low and/or accidental interaction? Whoa, I don't think that's fair. This game can be downright brutal when played with a group of people who know what they are doing. It becomes all about being able to predict what your opponents are doing, and what they need to get there, and...how to deny it without totally hurting your own development in the process.
I appreciate your thoughts, and agree with much of what you said, just not the low/accidental interaction part of it.
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dkearns wrote: Nikoms wrote:
4) Rules. Long, awkward and HEAVY.
This comment strikes me as a little unusual. You put your person on a space and do what it says. At the end of a season you have to give up two food per person. Everything scores, the more the better. That's about it. Maybe I've just always taught as we go.
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Arthur Rutyna
United States
Plymouth
Michigan
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I've played Agricola at least 6 times, and agree with most of the OPs points. Both Agricola's & Puerto Rico's theme are rather meh! But in Puerto Rico I feel like I have a chance at success. In Agricola, it bothers the hell out of me that everyone starts with different cards, and yet somehow this is "supposed to be balanced". Really??? I'm sure it's just my poor play, but it doesn't seem balanced when someone has cards that work with each other and I don't.
Agree with the components. Look what you get for Age of Empires III: Age of Discovery components for $40.
Of course, to each his own, and AoE III is way better (to me) in every way over Agricola.
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Adverb
United States
Framingham
Massachusetts
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chally wrote: Although my experiences in a few areas -- in particular setup and downtime -- have differed markedly from your own, I will heartily endorse the view that Agricola is unlikely to work for people who dislike stressful games.
The stress you describe in Agricola is one of the reasons I love it, and one of my primary motivations in gaming more generally. Indeed I struggle to fathom why anyone would ever want to play any game that isn't anxiety-inducing. But, if you do, the review is correct that Agricola is unlikely to be your cup of tea.
I came here to say something, but Ben already said it. Although I don't have an issue with the setup time.
curtc wrote: And that's why I don't like O&L as much as either of those two. The stress of feeding your people is the soul of the game, and the tension against the vp grab. Without it O&L feels lifeless. It's just a resource->vp engine.
I have yet to play OeL, but this is a little disappointing to hear. I hope my experience is different.
edit: Oh, and to the OP: kudos for giving the game a fair shake. You've got to find the games that work for your group, and this doesn't sound like one of them. I'm not sure Agricola would work with my friends, either, but my wife loves it, so it's a great 2p experience for me and therefore has a permanent place in my library.
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Mr Derrp!
United States
Crystal
Minnesota
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I agree completely with the OP. A lot of hype. But hey - different strokes for different folks.
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Rusty Patterson
Saudi Arabia
Ras Tanura
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Nikoms wrote:
6) Down time. Well, if you like time to go get something to eat or drink or just shoot the breeze with others (assuming they are not AP-ing at the table) – you’ve got it. Down time is pretty high. Nothing like sitting and waiting – only to realize what you had planned to do has to change.
Couldn't this have been a result of all the players playing a game for the first time, as you seem to indicate? If everyone at the table is AP-ing, then the game will obviously involve a lot of downtime. I won't bother to belabor the point by mentioning a couple of obvious solutions to this problem, since you've already stated that you don't want to hear it.
I find that the slowest part of the game is the card drafting, which my group uses to smooth out the game balance issues. This phase speeds up when everyone is familiar with the cards, but even then it still entails a significant time commitment before the game can actually start.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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Decent commentary, well spake, and I'll defend to the death of my last wooly your right--nay, your duty!--to speak it. One point I'll kvetch about is the complaint about price. You're underestimating the cost of paper/wood, for one, and not accounting for the replayability factor, for two. Even at its full list price of $70 (which may or may not have gone up since last I looked, I dunno), and even if you only play a handful of games, it's an entertainment steal, far cheaper than movies, theater, pro sports, concerts, and the like. Beyond that, it sounds like, as you said, it's not your group's cup of tea. Fair enough. Far be it from me to hold a gun to your heads; there're plenty of games in the world.
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Tadeu Zubaran
Germany
Berlin
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Looking at your grading in bgg I could tell you you probably wouldn't like Agricola.
Your top graders are almost solely light wargames and ultra light euros with very shallow strategic depth such as carcassone and settlers (nothing against you). The only exception I saw was Puerto Rico (I may have missed some other since I took a fast look).
Don't waste your time with:
Le Havre
Brass
Hansa Teutonica
Steam
Troyes
Tigris & Euphrates
Caylus
Nikoms wrote: don’t reply to tell me we have to work through it – it gets better once you become more familiar with the game
For me it was love at first sight.
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Nathaniel Todd
United States
Canton
New York
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I will admit that I enjoyed Agricola the first time I played it, though the cards and the sheer amount of stuff that was out on the table was a bit overwhelming the first few times. My biggest points of contention here:
Downtime. First, I am shocked that the same group would have vastly different downtime experiences with Agricola and Puerto Rico--both are complicated for new players and both require a lot of planning, changes in plans, and thought. Any fairly complicated euro will have a certain amount of downtime that will greatly diminish with repeated plays.
Components. I can understand being disappointed with the expressiveness of the components here especially if you like the plastic mini style of pieces found in AoEIII. However, being disappointed in the amount of stuff you get in this game seems crazy--this game may have the best price to components ratio of anything in my collection. Tons of wooden pieces, individual farm playing boards, three decks of cards, food chits, double sided action space boards...it boggles my mind!
Bottom line I'm surprised you're not willing to give this game several more chances simply due to its reputation. It took me a couple plays of Through the Ages before I realized it's probably the best game ever designed, and though I hated Caylus at first and barely tolerate it now I still intend to play it a few more times just to make sure the game isn't as amazing as its reputation.
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Makis
United States
Lewisville
Texas
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I'm sad to hear that you aren't a fan. I've literally loved this game from the first time I played it. I don't play it enough.
To some of your points:
Down time: I never felt there was that much to begin with. If you continue to give the game a chance you may find down time decreasing exponentially as it relates to experience of the players.
Price: I had no problem paying that much for this game. The components are fine in my opinion and the artwork on the cards and colors used throughout all aspects of the game simply make up for the fact that I'm using little cubes to represent things. I think it comes down to imagination and whether or not that's really a sticking point for you.
The only issue I had with the game was the fact that there wasn't something to hold all of the pieces better. Instead you're given the board with suggested locations for "banked" pieces but they spill all over the place. My group eventually started using small bowls to fix this issue. I also have an issue with the instructions as I think they could have been written better and a little more clearly.
I hope you give it another few tries. The game is a lot of fun.
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Gabriel Kitterman
United States
Silverton
Oregon
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My all time favorite game is Agricola: farmers of the moor
I was never really a fan of using the cards in the game. It just felt like there was so much going on that I couldn't even look at my opponents much less talk to them.
My only suggestion would be to try the family version for a while first. Otherwise, it can be over taxing.
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Greg Gresik
United States
Bolingbrook
Illinois
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fadeproofvision wrote:
I will admit that I enjoyed Agricola the first time I played it,
Bottom line I'm surprised you're not willing to give this game several more chances simply due to its reputation. It took me a couple plays of Through the Ages before I realized it's probably the best game ever designed, and though I hated Caylus at first and barely tolerate it now I still intend to play it a few more times just to make sure the game isn't as amazing as its reputation.
In regards to the first sentence - that's part of the concern. Ironically (and to my point) read the opening of the response right after yours - same thing. People that enjoy Agricola seem to "see it coming" from their very first play. That was nowhere near the case for us. It actually reminded me of the first time the group played "Through the Desert" - everyone said "Hmmmmm..." and nodded a lot - but it was quiet, with many furrowed brows and it has never been asked for again....that was 5 years ago. It's almost as if we can see why other like it - we just don't care for it ouselves.
The second part (about giving Agricola more chances due to rep) was something I knew would happen as soon as I posted the review. I fully understand that it is well liked. We all understood it going in. In fact 1 of the two others I played with also frequents BGG (that's how we came to play Through the Ages a few weeks later). As I said, maybe that was part of the problem - expectations were too high.
Thanks for the replies though.
I do want to mention two things that seem to be popping up in the responses:
1) One of the players already had played - so we weren't navigating "blind" as it were. Now, whether or not his previous plays had given enough insight to teach it well, might be a different issue.
2) There have been numerous suggestions about "storage solutions" and "using your imagination" when it comes to the components - some in the very same responses that claim that the price is a great value compared to what you get. That seems a bit odd to me - I should spend $50-$60 on a game...and then go buy more things to help store it...and "use my imagination" because the components, while functional are not as "inspiring" as other games (which cost the same).
All of that said, I SUPPOSE if the others would like to give it another spin, I may relent. But honestly, I am not going to ask - and part of the point in this review is that I don't think they will either - not even the one who dropped $50 on it.
I realize posting a negative review about such a highly liked game lands me on the "pay no mind" list of many - but I just wanted to share our experience, so that those considering it wouldn't completely shocked if it fell a little flat. It happens - even to games I do enjoy.
Thanks for the responses.
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