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I found the rules for ‘commanders’ in Banners of War rather lacklustre, so here is my own crack at them. The allow you to use your Commander as an actual fighting unit in the game.
This is the BETA version, feedback welcome.
Commanders
At setup players receive 2 heroes of his alignment and a Commander card and selects one of the heroes to be a commander (mark him with the token).
Commanders are no longer considered heroes and do not follow hero rules; instead they are treated as units and follow full unit rules except as detailed below. Commanders do nothing during the Quest phase. They do not count towards your hero limit, and you may have 1 commander (2 with Lieutenant General).
Acquiring Commanders
At the start of the Quest Phase, you may elect to have any friendly hero at one of your strongholds become a commander. Draw a new Commander card and give it to the hero, who is now a commander. If you already have the maximum number of commanders in play (1 or 2 with Lieutenant General) then you must first select a Commander to dessert you - commanders cannot be changed back into heroes.
Players may receive new commander cards via the supremacy bonus of "Rally support" as described in BoW page 10.
Commander Unit
Commanders are treated as units and follow all unit rules for stacking, feeding, movement, healing etc except as follows:
- Commanders may only be recruited via the Commander rules explained above.
- Commanders can still desert as if they were heroes is any desertion cards come up.
- The "Captain of the Heroes League" title affects them.
- Commanders may hold and use Reward Cards except for Timmorran Shards. If a commander is ever holding a Timmorran Shard it is immediately discarded.
- If a commander is killed he leaves a defeated hero marker as if he were a Hero if he has any Reward cards.
- A commander may take Reward cards from a defeated Hero marker.
- If a commander is in the same area as a friendly hero they may exchange Reward cards.
Commanders cannot complete quests, duel, or do anything else that heroes do unless noted otherwise.
Commanders in Combat
Commanders fight in combat as if they were any other unit involved in the battle. In addition follow the rules below.
- Commanders may use the ability listed on their Commander Card as long as they are not defeated or routed. If they use the ability it remains in use for the rest of the battle.
- Commanders provide any bonus as detailed on their hero card.
- Commanders fight as CIRCLE units.
- Commanders have wounds equal to their wound score.
- Commanders have an initiative equal to 6 – [Agility]
- When attacking, commanders draw Fate cards equal to the commander’s Wisdom and choses one of those cards to play, discarding the rest.
- A standing commander adds his Strength to the battle, or half his Strength (round down) if he is routed (instead of simply adding 1 if standing.)
- Commanders may use Reward cards in battle, with the normal maximum of 1 weapon and 1 armour for the battle.
- If a commander is involved in a battle where an opponents stronghold is captured/destroyed, he may Train (see below.)
Training
Anytime a commander Trains, he may increase an attribute by 1 (as opposed to 2 attributes by one or 1 attribute by 2.) In other words, commanders train at half the rate of heroes.
Special Wounds
Sometimes commanders will be told to take Special Wounds. Use influence tokens to mark such wounds. Special Wounds are treated exactly like normal damage except that when assigning damage in battle you do not have to place the damage on a unit which only has special wounds unless you choose to, you may assign the damage to another standing unit. In other words special wounds are ‘invisible’ for the purposes of damage assignment in combat. If a commander has regular damage the normal damage allocation rules must be followed (ie the hero has to receive further damage before non wounded units get assigned damage.)
Special Wounds are removed at the end of battle same as normal damage.
General Card Changes
When a hero becomes a commander some of their abilities or reward cards they use change in order to make them more relevant. For commanders in general:
- Replace Duel with battle.
- Replace Hero with Commander.
- Replace Round with Phase.
- For any ability which tells you to "deal this hero damage" to activate his ability, that damage is taken as Special Wounds.
- Remember any reference to training uses the commander training rule described above.
- Abilities that refer to the Quest Phase may still be used during the Quest Phase even though commanders normally do nothing during this phase.
Hero Card Changes
Hero cards remain as written for heroes, but if that hero becomes a commander check the below list to see if their ability changes.
Bogran the Shadow: At the start of battle involving another commander, Bogran may take a special wound to steal a random reward card off that hero.
Challara: If a battle starts in an adjacent area, Challara may move into that area and join the battle, even if her current area has been activated.
Krutzbeck: At the start of a battle deal an enemy commander involved in that battle a wound.
Landrec the Wise: If this test succeeds the battle immediately ends, however Landrec and all his forces must immediately Retreat.
Lyssa of the East: Ability can be activated once per battle, and you may force your opponent to redraw the fate card of your choice.
Mordrog: Ability takes effect at the start of battle.
One Fist: When One Fist becomes a commander he draws a Reward card. If it’s a Timmorran Shard he gets nothing.
Red Scorpion: Is Fast.
Ronan of the Wild: Is Fast
Silhouette: Each Quest Phase, Silhouette may discard her Commander card and draw a new one.
Sir Valadir: When Sir Valadir trains, he trains twice.
Spiritspeaker Mok: You may use this ability on heroes (not just Commanders.)
Steelhorns: Ability only affects Steelhorns’ attack (not every attack your units make).
Tatianna: At the start of the battle Tatianna may draw a fate card to escape. If the Destiny symbol is Grey, the battle immediately ends and Tatianna and all friendly units are moved to an adjacent friendly area. If that area is inactivated, activate it.
Truthseer Kel: After her normal attack, Kel may draw one fate card as a second attack.
Varikas the Dead: Prior to attacking, Varikas may remove two damage tokens from himself.
Commander Card Changes
Lead By Example: This card allows all damage taken by the hero to be Special Wounds.
Reward Card Changes
If used by a commander Reward cards change as follows. Cards are useable in battle unless otherwise stated. Remember Commanders may never possess Timmorran Shards.
Cloak of Deception: If the test is passed the Commander may move to an adjacent friendly or empty area, but the battle continues with the remaining units.
Flute of Possession: Not useable in combat. May move neutral units from an adjacent area into your area.
Mace of Aver: If the Commander plays a Rout result, your opponent draws no fate cards in the next initiative phase for any of his units.
Rune of Summoning: The area may be friendly.
Rune of Teleportation: Discard anytime you activate an area to move the Commander to that area. The Commander cannot already be in an activated area.
Soulbiter: Hero is healed provided this attack kills a unit.
Throwing Knives: Discard to have the hero attack a second time.
Wings of Regrowth: Gives the hero fast and Flying.
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Kelly Fischer
United States
Bismarck
North Dakota
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
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This is an interesting take on it, thanks for all the effort to create this listing. I do have a question however.
Strength is rewarded by adding to final strength tally.
Wisdom is rewarded by drawing multiple tactic cards to choose from when attacking.
Agility is rewarded by ?
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John Culp
United States
Gillette
Wyoming
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KeyserSoze wrote: This is an interesting take on it, thanks for all the effort to create this listing. I do have a question however.
Strength is rewarded by adding to final strength tally.
Wisdom is rewarded by drawing multiple tactic cards to choose from when attacking.
Agility is rewarded by ?
initiative Quote: Commanders have an initiative equal to 6 – [Agility]
I like it
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David F
United States
Emeryville
California
Set up a lot of the PBF framework for BSG, Runewars, Small World, The Devil's Castle. PBF in Gears of War, Death Angel, A Game of Thrones. Currently playing Twilight Struggle, Middle-Earth Quest and Eclipse on Vassal.
I'm anal about using the right terms to describe games and have posted an alternative glossary to the inconsistent sprawl in BGG's database and lexicon that is clear, accurate and simple. I care big time about my reviews, ratings and comments.
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I liked everything up to the specific card changes, since I don't like to replace card/board text with other text. If I try this, I'd just say all the heroes have no text ability, and instead have the Commander ability. Seems like the commanders are already powerful enough (the 3-4 health is a godsend for those early battles) without letting them have 2 abilities.
If 2 abilities is still preferred, then just rule that Commanders get 2 Commander Cards each. I prefer that to looking up a crib sheet to see how a hero's ability changes when he/she becomes Commander.
Why do you have a Commanders Training at half the rate of heroes rule if they can't do anything in the Quest Phase? Is that only to account for cards that let them train (I can't think of any)?
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Kelly Fischer
United States
Bismarck
North Dakota
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
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Thanks, I missed that.
lj1983 wrote: initiative Quote: Commanders have an initiative equal to 6 – [Agility]
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selwyth wrote: I liked everything up to the specific card changes, since I don't like to replace card/board text with other text. If I try this, I'd just say all the heroes have no text ability, and instead have the Commander ability. Seems like the commanders are already powerful enough (the 3-4 health is a godsend for those early battles) without letting them have 2 abilities.
Fair enough. I'm not happy with the number of card changes either, but I had to do it because they wouldn't make sense for commanders otherwise.
I wanted them in because that's where the heroes flavor comes from. Plus I've wanted reward cards useable in battle since I first got the base game. I find the commander cards rather 'meh' and don't really like how they are not hero specific.
Quote: If 2 abilities is still preferred, then just rule that Commanders get 2 Commander Cards each. I prefer that to looking up a crib sheet to see how a hero's ability changes when he/she becomes Commander.
I'd just leave it at 1. I find the commander cards rather 'meh' and don't really like how they are not hero specific - my main complaint with BoW is that it doesn't matter much which hero you use as a comander because he becomes 'generic' in that role.
Quote: Why do you have a Commanders Training at half the rate of heroes rule if they can't do anything in the Quest Phase? Is that only to account for cards that let them train (I can't think of any)?
Lindel and Hugo the Glorious can train up too quick otherwise, and training is powerful for commanders. It's mainly a holdover from older rules I was messing about with and forgot to adjust.
I'm thinking of taking it out, adjusting their powers and not having training when you take down a stronghold to simplfy things since as you point out, it's a bit pointless now.
If you are not using hero powers I'd just drop the whole training thing for commanders all together.
EDIT: I also just realised I'm a bozo that forgot about the training limit of one token per attribute when I was playtesting. 
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David F
United States
Emeryville
California
Set up a lot of the PBF framework for BSG, Runewars, Small World, The Devil's Castle. PBF in Gears of War, Death Angel, A Game of Thrones. Currently playing Twilight Struggle, Middle-Earth Quest and Eclipse on Vassal.
I'm anal about using the right terms to describe games and have posted an alternative glossary to the inconsistent sprawl in BGG's database and lexicon that is clear, accurate and simple. I care big time about my reviews, ratings and comments.
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Quote: - If a commander is involved in a battle where an opponents stronghold is captured/destroyed, he may Train (see below.)
Ah, I didn't see this earlier. Makes sense, and I like it. Could simplify it to "If a commander is involved in a battle where an opponents stronghold is captured/destroyed, he may Train 1 attribute if hero abilities are blank.
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Peter Cox
Bosnia & Herzegovina
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Good work. Have you tested it much, or are you putting it out there so others can test/give feedback?
Quote: my main complaint with BoW is that it doesn't matter much which hero you use as a comander because he becomes 'generic' in that role.
Yes, that's very disappointing. I would have expected their stats to play a much greater role. I really like this idea for that reason.
(EDIT: oh, I see, you're talking about it in context of the bonus hero abilities. My first response was the stats now playing more a role, are enough for a bit of difference, but now I look over the character abilities, I do think some clarifications of the general rules are appropriate, and not too hard to keep track of. The items I don't think need changing really and more than the general changes already suggest)
My only initial comments is that I suspect adding strength at the end of combat will be too powerful, and really imbalance fortresses to the worse. I would see something like strength/2 (round up) if not routed, and no additional strength if routed.
However, if I could make a suggestion to to go in a slightly different direction, for thematic reasons, I would prefer to see strength/2 as the number of fate cards drawn (and choose which to play), and wisdom for something else. Perhaps something that adds to the abilities of the other units. For example go like MEQ, and allow wisdom/2 to allow you to either decrease initiative, or allow more fate cards to be drawn (or a combination of the two) by the amount of wisdom/2 points you spend.
I'd also suggest that if you go this way, training rules could be a simpler, you can go up to +2 per stat. Every time a hero is in a battle and kills at least one unit they can train a stat by +1
Generally speaking, I really like the idea and execution in principle, but basically just think commanders will be too powerful as it stands at the moment, and need a bit of a nerf without getting rid of the basic structure of what you're suggesting.
YET ANOTHER EDIT: I would also say this might really imbalance the opening few rounds of play, when you're going up against neutral units and conquering them without much risk? Early play could be a bit dull comparatively as a result. Maybe rule it so you start with only 1 hero (not commander), and cannot get a commander until you purchase your second hero?
I think this would work well with restricting commanders at the start, because you get them from Rally Support, and you're not going to have a city for a couple of turns most likely, so you face the decision of getting your commander early, but having an otherwise wasted order card.
OMFG SO MANY EDITS: because they can't duel, it means other players heroes can't attack commanders, except in battle, correct? Is so, good 
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Scott Lewis
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
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petercox1001 wrote: Good work. Have you tested it much, or are you putting it out there so others can test/give feedback? Quote: my main complaint with BoW is that it doesn't matter much which hero you use as a comander because he becomes 'generic' in that role. Yes, that's very disappointing. I would have expected their stats to play a much greater role. I really like this idea for that reason.
Well, there are a few Commander cards where the stats matter a little bit, but I agree that overall the Commanders are kind of generic.
I need to take a look at this variant in detail. I actually don't mind the RAW version (though I admit, it's not my favorite part of the expansion), but this variant, at least from my initial skim, looks interesting.
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Peter Cox
Bosnia & Herzegovina
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Quote: Well, there are a few Commander cards where the stats matter a little bit, but I agree that overall the Commanders are kind of generic.
Yes, there is the agility one 'thorn in their side' or something, which I think is one of the better commander cards.
But yeah, it's a disappointing moment when you get the huge armored goat guy for example, and think 'man, he's gonna be a KICK ASS' commander, and then you realise - he's exactly the same as anyone else because almost all the cards don't rely on stats, and the theme just goes out the window. 
Commanders should really be adding flavour and character to your army, but they just don't currently.
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petercox1001 wrote: Good work. Have you tested it much, or are you putting it out there so others can test/give feedback?
As described its in BETA, meaning I'm happy with the overall structure but it still needs tweeking. I've tested it mainly through simulation exercises than actual games (I'm a test analyst by trade). And yes feedback is welcome and I'm expecting to do some more changes. David F has already got me thinking about dropping the training change.
Quote: (EDIT: oh, I see, you're talking about it in context of the bonus hero abilities. My personal taste is the stats now playing more a role, are enough for a bit of difference. Personally, I would find the the bonus character/item abilities to be a bit fiddly to keep track of. I think if you just say a 'duel' takes place when a hero fights in a battle, everything's covered)
There are 30 heroes available. Of those 16 I felt needed further clarification beyond the generic wording change (around half)
Of those around 4-5 are big changes, the rest are almost identicle to what the card says anyway, so referencing in game should be minimal. Remember everyone normally has only 1 commander anyway.
An option might be to create hero cards for the commander version of the heroes, but the publisher may object since 90% of the card would be the same.
Anyway I like the hero powers and think it's the most interesting part of the variant (they interact in interesting ways, for example Krutzbeck becomes a commando killer that everyone avoids, Jonas a city holder etc) but people can eaily drop it if they think it's too much.
Quote: My only initial comments is that I suspect adding strength at the end of combat will be too powerful, and really imbalance fortresses to the worse. I would see something like strength/2 if not routed, and no additional strength if routed.
However, if I could make a suggestion to to go in a slightly different direction, for thematic reasons, I would prefer to see strength/2 as the number of fate cards drawn, and wisdom for something else. Perhaps something that adds to the abilities of the other units. For example stop wisdom/2 number of units retreating? Or go like MEQ, and allow wisdom/2 to allow you to either decrease initiative, or allow more fate cards to be drawn (or a combination of the two) by the amount of wisdom/2 points you spend.
You could be right, adding strength was actually a late change, Originally it was:
Agility determines initiative (as current)
Strength determined number of fate cards to draw
Wisdom let you avoid direct attacks or routs when your hero was 'targeted'. You drew fate cards equal to agility and if you got a success you could avoid the damage/rout. It was too fidley though so i scrapped it and came up with the current system.
Thing is I never find stregth to be that much of a decider in my games, which is why I boosted it with the 1/2 for routed commanders. Also remember the commander has to survive the battle for it to take effect, and they aren't that hard to kill. Target them with an elven archer and they are dead meat since once they are wounded they have to recieve all the remaining damage (thats why the special wounds rule is there, oherwise their powers were never used.)
Anyway I'd be interested in further feedback if anyone actually tries this.
Quote: YET ANOTHER EDIT: I would also say this might really imbalance the opening few rounds of play, when you're going up against neutral units and conquering them without much risk? Early play could be a bit dull comparatively as a result. Maybe rule it so you start with only 1 hero (not commander), and cannot get a commander until you purchase your second hero?
This is true, the early rounds are easier against neutrals.
Quote: I think this would work well with restricting commanders at the start, because you get them from Rally Support, and you're not going to have a city for a couple of turns most likely, so you face the decision of getting your commander early, but having an otherwise wasted order card.
Or you could just get one hero at the start and have to decide if he is going to be a commander or a hero.
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David F
United States
Emeryville
California
Set up a lot of the PBF framework for BSG, Runewars, Small World, The Devil's Castle. PBF in Gears of War, Death Angel, A Game of Thrones. Currently playing Twilight Struggle, Middle-Earth Quest and Eclipse on Vassal.
I'm anal about using the right terms to describe games and have posted an alternative glossary to the inconsistent sprawl in BGG's database and lexicon that is clear, accurate and simple. I care big time about my reviews, ratings and comments.
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Mr Skeletor wrote: Or you could just get one hero at the start and have to decide if he is going to be a commander or a hero.
I like this. Allows me to slap a Commander down and not worry about quests if both my quests are those impossible BoW ones.
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Peter Cox
Bosnia & Herzegovina
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Quote: Or you could just get one hero at the start and have to decide if he is going to be a commander or a hero.
Yeah maybe. Needs some experimentation, as I suspect most people would go for commander. Depends on how they balance out in power I guess.
Quote: There are 30 heroes available. Of those 16 I felt needed further clarification beyond the generic wording change (around half)
Yeah, I had a look through the character cards this afternoon, and I think you're right. I'd actually edited my post 3mins before yours
Quote: Anyway I'd be interested in further feedback if anyone actually tries this.
I'm hoping to get a game in this weekend, so I'll let you know.
EDIT: why the rule that commanders cannot be changed back into heroes, BTW?
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Peter Cox
Bosnia & Herzegovina
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Quick report: 2, 2 player games this afternoon. Played with skeletor's variant, with some of my minor modifications (described below).
I played with commanders and the strength/2 = number of cards drawn; 6-agility = initiative; wisdom/2 = can add to strength/agility.
This worked well. Not too strong, but not too weak. Reinforced to me that adding strength of commander to final combat strength would be too strong.
But did make battle a little more fiddly as people decided what to add wisdom to (almost always strength seemed the better option).
Also started with only 1 hero, and get commander with first hero purchase.
This worked well in some ways, less in others.
Definitely noticed a lack of questing heroes as a result of this, as first hero purchase is invariably a commander, and it slows down questing a lot as a result.
However, the opening few moves still retained the tension of deciding what neutral units to attack, and it would be a pity if this was wrecked by having strong commanders in the game too early. Those 3 or 4 hit points would make a huge difference.
Other bonus was that it kept commander power in check as by the time they came out, we found that hexagon units were appearing, which are approximately as powerful as commanders.
Can't think of a way to resolve those issues currently. Perhaps *first* hero purchase gets you a questing hero & a commander?
Is a bit of a pain refering to the sheet for special commander abilities. Can't really figure a way around this though. It winds up as an awful lot to think about, especially once you add items into the mix as well.
Need to be balance with making the combat fast, as this is one of runewars' better strengths.
EDIT, and final thoughts:
Overall there were a lot of positives playing this way, over the original version. But after some thought, I can't help but feel the major problem with it, was that in any practical sense the commanders basically wind up feeling basically like a somewhat fiddly hexagon level unit rather than a commander as such that's truly unique from the armies and questing heroes.
I had a couple of ideas for changes, but I think it's probably a substantial enough change that I might just post a new thread rather than derail this one too much by bringing up a whole different mechanic.
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