Kyle Sussenbach
United States
Georgia
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Hey guys,
I wanted to get some opinions on some alterations I have made to the base game of Descent: JitD.
I played the game originally as I read the instructions to be, however there were a few things that my group did not like.
1. The health/armor of the monsters is atrocious. Not only are they not satisfying to kill with one shot, but even the 'powerful' strong dragons/demons are killed in 2-3 hits (usually 1 turn) by the heros.
2. The spawning of more weak monsters by the overlord just made everyone mad. It wasn't that they couldn't kill the spawned monsters, but it was incredibly annoying to run back to where the monsters had been spawned rather than moving forward with the mission.
3. In general four people vs. the overlord is a bad idea. I have played probably 15+ games of Descent (4-5 w/ the original rules, 10 or so with some slightly altered rules, and now a few with my newest set of rules) and I only 'won' once. The reason being not because I haven't been able to otherwise, but the heros were just like, "...oh...well that was dumb..." When there is a game where I, as the overlord, am responsible for the entertainment of 4 other people ending the game abruptly because I happened to kill their last hero is unsatisfying for everyone.
So...After explaining where I am coming from, these are some changes I've made. Two things I want to know from you guys: do you think i am missing out on something that would make the game more satisfying (in the original rules), and do you think that my new rules are pretty good?
1. All monster health is doubled. This may seem extreme, but monsters are so much more satisfying to kill. In addition most boss monsters have much more health and armor. I think that a boss should be a struggle, and require a couple turns at least to beat. (Honestly, much of the time I will not have a specific number for the bosses health, and instead will just see how the fight is going. If the heros have been whacking on the dragon for a few turns and are anticipating death after turn, I usually chose to announce his death. Lastly, the monster health is not limited to just double. If the heros have started getting stronger (weapons, lvling up, etc.) then I will increase it (or the armor) even more to compensate.
2. No more spawning. I hate spawning monsters, it is miserable. There is no need for it and I always (after playing with at least 10-15 different people) find that they like killing stronger monsters much more than 'more' monsters. I balance this two ways. First, I keep the monster threat cards in the overlord deck, I just instantly cash them in. Also, I adopted an RtL idea in the way treasure works. Instead of everyone getting some I get them to roll one black die per hero. dmg/range yields one treasure, surges yield 100gold, and blanks yield nothing.
3. I don't try to win. It would not be fun for anyone to do it. So I guess instead I'm more like a dungeon master and facilitate the experience. This necessitates a few changes. I do not use conquest tokens. Instead, I use them for experience. When the heros kill a monster every hero involved receives 1 xp per white monster, 2 per red monster, and 3 per boss. Heros can then 'lvl up' for 10 xp. This has the heros lvling up usually once ever 1-2 hours. I start each hero at lvl one. They get 1 skill card and at each lvl up they can pick 1 of 3 things: +4 health, +2 fatigue, or +1 power die. Also at every odd lvl (I may change this) they get an extra skill card.
I also make all scenarios run together. I am in the middle of one right now where...The heros started in a dungeon having to break out, make their way to town to figure out what is going on. After finding out a Dragon is taking over the minds of all the powerful wizards in the land they set out to stop him. The quest is complete with specialized weapon quests, blacksmiths that require simple regents, towns, and unique boss fights. The heros keep their characters and travel together. Obviously, these fights are over several different scenarios, I'm expecting this one to last around 10-12.
So, forgive me for the long-winded nature of this post, but I wanted to be thorough. I know I borrowed some from RtL, and other posts here and there, but I think there are some unique changes that i have employed.
Do you guys have any thoughts and/or questions?
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Trent Hamm
United States
Huxley
Iowa
See this text? It's a gratuitous waste of GeekGold.
The game itself isn't important. Spending time intellectually jousting with likeminded folks is the real reason to game.
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Why not just play D&D 4E at this point? That's more or less what you're describing here.
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Phil Crompton
United Kingdom
St Helens
Merseyside
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Ouch the previous post seems a little harsh. I guess once you have bought a game and then it doesn't live up to its expectations then it's time to sell or try to improve it. In the latter case then Descent 2nd edition seems to have cleaned the glitches up. But then again that's like buying a new game isn't it ? What 1st ed. lacks is the rpg feel - basically it is a, very, long hack and slay with no real feel for the characters you own. Old, and new even, D&D'ers, AD&D'ers and Runequesters will fix it how they will by adding a bit of gloss and a snatch of role-play acting. The combat is okay for me it is the 'why am I here and why am I killing these monsters' that eludes me as a player and also as a DM (or is that GM, Overlord etc etc...)
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Um. It sounds like you've pretty much thrown balance out the window, but you don't care because you're making up your own content and fudging rules on the fly to ensure that the heroes always win. If you're having fun doing that, awesome! But asking people here whether your rules are good is pretty pointless, because the game you're playing is no longer in the same genre as Descent, and most of the enjoyment you're getting is probably coming from the players, not the rules.
The deadly combat and heavy spawning are relatively common complaints. If you want to try to address those while maintaining the competitive nature of the game, you might be interested in The Enduring Evil, my own homebrew variant.
But it also sounds like your group has yet to fully grasp the strategies involved in Descent. Many groups get trapped in a mindset of killing every monster, and then collecting every scrap of loot, then trying to fully heal before the next fight. But Descent isn't a traditional RPG dungeon crawl, it's a race. The overlord gets resources every turn you delay. You don't get more XP for killing every kobold hiding back in at the entrance.
If the overlord spawns monsters way behind you, you ignore them and continue forward; only kill them if they become a real threat. It's often a good idea to open chests BEFORE killing the monsters that guard them, so you can use the contents during the fight. Healing is only occasionally worthwhile; vitality potions to restore your fatigue (so you can do more stuff on your turn) are almost always a better option.
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Kyle Sussenbach
United States
Georgia
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I appreciate the comments. Yes, I realize I am keeping the aesthetics and basic structure of Descent while discarding much of the game, including balance.
I think I appreciate a game like Descent more than (based on what I know, I've never played) D&D is its simplicity. We played a four hour game the other night that was pretty satisfying where the first hero woke up in a cell, broke out, killed the first (sleeping) guard and broke 2 of his other friends out. They then proceeded to find a wizard that helped them out with some gear and would resurrect any dead team members. They meet two wizards that were holding their 4th team member hostage, killed them, raided the guards barracks, and then proceeded to kill the Goblin Commander to leave the dungeon cave. This was all with out any of them having played the game before. From my understanding of D&D for this much to happen (besides their being no visual assistance) this would take much longer. I know their isn't quite as much freedom, but there is plenty for me to make a satisfying adventure.
I suppose I just wanted to put this out their as a possible variant for anyone looking for something involving more roleplaying and story.
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Kylesussenbach wrote: From my understanding of D&D for this much to happen (besides their being no visual assistance) this would take much longer. I know their isn't quite as much freedom, but there is plenty for me to make a satisfying adventure.
You definitely haven't played D&D if you think there's no visual assistance. =P That may have been true once upon a time, but the last two editions have basically been built around their own line of minis and battle maps, while still providing a much more open framework for telling the stories you want to and watching the heroes win than Descent does.
That little story you just told sounds like pretty much every D&D game I've ever seen played (minus the pompous DMs bragging about how their games are "totally all about the story" when it's really just a dungeon crawl with a few scripted scenes thrown in.)
I'm not saying your house rules are bad or anything - whatever makes the game fun for you and your friends is the right way to play, at the end of the day. No matter what anyone online might tell you, myself included.
Having run an actual, honest to goodness D&D game using Descent bits for the battles, however, I would strongly suggest you consider D&D if you want a REAL RPG rule set to use with these game components. You can even map all the treasure cards to D&D equivalent loot and continue using the cards to determine random treasure piles. Aside from the dice, everything converts quite nicely, I must say.
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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I'm totally where the OP is and I agree fully. After having played Descent a couple of times, I felt the win-lose between the heroes and the monster player just didn't do it for me at all in this type of game.
But like an earlier poster said, once you try to make Descent into an adventure game, like Dragon Strike or whatever, you're merely using the components of Descent to make a game that's totally different.
Which is what I do.
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Jan Tuijp
Netherlands
Volendam
Noord-Holland
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Zimeon wrote: I'm totally where the OP is and I agree fully. After having played Descent a couple of times, I felt the win-lose between the heroes and the monster player just didn't do it for me at all in this type of game.
I felt the same way. I had purchased JitD, WoD and RtL, with the AC in mind. We played a few JitD-quests and we were very much underwhelmed. I was already painting the miniatures by then and became really worried it was all for nothing. But when we started RtL all fell into place. Not sure that RtL would scratch your itch, though...
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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Jan Tuijp wrote: But when we started RtL all fell into place. Not sure that RtL would scratch your itch, though...
Maybe, maybe not. I was overwhelmed at first, but after analysis, I felt it was not by cup of tea on many basic levels, so anything based on the base box would probably disappoint me. Like the OP, a lot in this game is "wrong" for me, from the monster stats, to the hero point system, to the hero respawn speed… it's an amazing game, it truly is. It's just not what I want, all the while looking a lot like EXACTLY what I want. As said, I had to play it a couple of times before I realized that it was pretty far off.
But I don't regret buying it. I have a lot of cool minis and cardboard and some nice ideas with which to play exactly what I want. 
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Regényi Mátyás
Hungary
Sopron
Győr-Moson-Sopron
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Zimeon!
Could you please share your ideas with us? I really want to play a shorter descent...
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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I have nothing concrete. As I said, what I picture is not even Descent, so it wouldn't at all qualify as "a shorter Descent".
It boils down to the following points:
* fewer monsters but harder
* smaller scenarios with more searching around
* magics as buffs, debuffs and healing (not just "generic magic missile")
* Much slower hero respawn.
* Monster behaviour patterns.
* A dice-triggered monster respawn
* Threat meter increses not the spawn probability, but the spawn size.
There's a ton of details that need to be worked out, but as you see, there's nothing of Descent left, except that it's "heroes and monsters in a dungeon".
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