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Roy Stephens
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I cannot see why this would be illegal, but, it seems kinda munchkiny...

The new Jean-Luc Picard promo card sets up a kind of interesting scenario:

The Picard promo (which is of the rank of Ensign) is in starbase. I fight a Romulan warbird from the Exploration deck and lose horribly. I have to take an ENSIGN into my deck. I take the Enisgn Picard card. Then, on a future turn, one of the uber Capt. Picards is in starbase. I then trash ensign Picard to gain Capt. Picard. For free. Even without that particular scenario, an Ensign Picard is better than a generic Ensign.

So, the question is: By the letter of the law, ANY card that is an ensign in either name OR keyword/rank is fair game for taking as "punishment" for ship destruction, right?
 
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Chris Ludgate
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Nope, sorry.

Ship destruction = gain an Ensign.

That is, a basic character Ensign, not any starbse card with the rank of Ensign.

You get a yellow guy that you will probably try to get rid of, ASAP.
 
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Quint Wheeler
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No - the designer answered a similar question of mine about the last Picard promo card in this thread: Picard promo card ability

Having the keyword does not make it an "Ensign card".
 
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Roy Stephens
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While I accept that answer, it probably should have been specified in the rules clearly that it refers to a "yellow shirt" card. I mean, I get what they are saying, game-mechanics wise, but, an Ensign is a rank. Why would there be a keyword for "ensign" if it didn't apply to situations where it asks for "ensigns"?

Regardless. The rule is the rule. thanks for the answers! :-)
 
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Scott Dunphy
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There is a lot of this game (both of them, actually) that should've been explained better. Still a good game worth playing.
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Charles Boyung
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hockeyjedi wrote:
While I accept that answer, it probably should have been specified in the rules clearly that it refers to a "yellow shirt" card. I mean, I get what they are saying, game-mechanics wise, but, an Ensign is a rank. Why would there be a keyword for "ensign" if it didn't apply to situations where it asks for "ensigns"?

Regardless. The rule is the rule. thanks for the answers! :-)


I find it hard to believe with all of the inconsistent and poorly worded rules, this is the thing that you found is not clear. I thought this one was perfectly clear. It says "Gain 1 Ensign." Since there's a card named "Ensign", why would it be allowing you to get anything else?
 
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Roy Stephens
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motoyugota wrote:
hockeyjedi wrote:
While I accept that answer, it probably should have been specified in the rules clearly that it refers to a "yellow shirt" card. I mean, I get what they are saying, game-mechanics wise, but, an Ensign is a rank. Why would there be a keyword for "ensign" if it didn't apply to situations where it asks for "ensigns"?

Regardless. The rule is the rule. thanks for the answers! :-)


I find it hard to believe with all of the inconsistent and poorly worded rules, this is the thing that you found is not clear. I thought this one was perfectly clear. It says "Gain 1 Ensign." Since there's a card named "Ensign", why would it be allowing you to get anything else?


I find it hard to believe that someone would respond to a simple question by being snarky, but, I'll take the bait and respond anyway.

My (apparently far inferior to your) interpretation was that the Picard promo card has the keyword "ensign". That means that Picard is an ENSIGN on that card. If one is supposed to take AN ENSIGN, it doesn't say "Take a Basic Ensign CARD", it says "Take an ENSIGN". Picard is AN ENSIGN (on the promo card). What is the point of a keyword on a card if it doesn't apply to other effects that mention it? Look at any other CCG/LCG/DBG for examples of this.

Regardless, the question has been officially answered already anyway.
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Wiet van Bragt
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hockeyjedi wrote:
I find it hard to believe that someone would respond to a simple question by being snarky, but, I'll take the bait and respond anyway.

My (apparently far inferior to your) interpretation was that the Picard promo card has the keyword "ensign". That means that Picard is an ENSIGN on that card. If one is supposed to take AN ENSIGN, it doesn't say "Take a Basic Ensign CARD", it says "Take an ENSIGN". Picard is AN ENSIGN (on the promo card). What is the point of a keyword on a card if it doesn't apply to other effects that mention it? Look at any other CCG/LCG/DBG for examples of this.

Regardless, the question has been officially answered already anyway.

I'm not familiar with this game (saw the thread pop up on front page) but I understand and agree with this reasoning 100% !
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Charles Boyung
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hockeyjedi wrote:
motoyugota wrote:
hockeyjedi wrote:
While I accept that answer, it probably should have been specified in the rules clearly that it refers to a "yellow shirt" card. I mean, I get what they are saying, game-mechanics wise, but, an Ensign is a rank. Why would there be a keyword for "ensign" if it didn't apply to situations where it asks for "ensigns"?

Regardless. The rule is the rule. thanks for the answers! :-)


I find it hard to believe with all of the inconsistent and poorly worded rules, this is the thing that you found is not clear. I thought this one was perfectly clear. It says "Gain 1 Ensign." Since there's a card named "Ensign", why would it be allowing you to get anything else?


I find it hard to believe that someone would respond to a simple question by being snarky, but, I'll take the bait and respond anyway.

My (apparently far inferior to your) interpretation was that the Picard promo card has the keyword "ensign". That means that Picard is an ENSIGN on that card. If one is supposed to take AN ENSIGN, it doesn't say "Take a Basic Ensign CARD", it says "Take an ENSIGN". Picard is AN ENSIGN (on the promo card). What is the point of a keyword on a card if it doesn't apply to other effects that mention it? Look at any other CCG/LCG/DBG for examples of this.

Regardless, the question has been officially answered already anyway.


Show me another game that references a specific card name that is meant to be interpreted as a keyword of the same name. Guess what? You won't be able to. Picard is not an Ensign card. He is a "Jean Luc Picard" card with the Ensign keyword. Huge difference.
 
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Roy Stephens
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block of text deleted due to redundancy...

motoyugota wrote:
Show me another game that references a specific card name that is meant to be interpreted as a keyword of the same name. Guess what? You won't be able to. Picard is not an Ensign card. He is a "Jean Luc Picard" card with the Ensign keyword. Huge difference.


You are probably right about not finding another example, because, although I really like this game, it has some issues with conflicting words/phrases. All the other card games I can think of do not have a card with the exact same name as a common keyword on other cards thus leading to this type of question.

Now...

This will be my last comment on this topic. As I have said REPEATEDLY, the rulebook CLEARLY STATES that upon ship destruction, a player is to take "AN ENSIGN". NOT an ensign CARD... an ENSIGN. This COULD BE interpreted to mean "any character card that has the rank of Ensign. If it said a BASIC ENSIGN CARD, this question would never have been asked. Others in this thread also have seen exactly what I am talking about. But, as I said before, it has been answered officially, so, I see no further need to continue this. However, I understand how very right and infallible you are and that the game has not yet been written that has a rule that you don't understand or misinterpret.

In closing, please remember the old adage:




 
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Jeff Dunford
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motoyugota wrote:
Show me another game that references a specific card name that is meant to be interpreted as a keyword of the same name. Guess what? You won't be able to. Picard is not an Ensign card. He is a "Jean Luc Picard" card with the Ensign keyword. Huge difference.


Off the top of my head...

Magic: The Gathering

Example (and there are many MANY examples of this in MtG):

Bloodstained Mire (among many others) references a "Mountain". Mountain is the name of a basic land card. However, Bloodstained Mire can find any card with (sub)type = "Mountain", such as Blood Crypt.





Before you comment on "mountain" being lower case in that example, here's another example where it is capitalized and still refers to any card with (sub)type = "Mountain":



While having (seemingly irrelevant) keywords on ST:DBG cards could lead to ambiguity, I think it's clear that the designer intended that "an Ensign" refers to the basic character titled "Ensign". Similarly, if Seven of Nine was added in an expansion and had a keyword mentioning a previous affiliation with the Borg, I think it would still be clear that "gain a Borg card" implies gaining a curse-like card titled "Borg", not a beneficial card from star base.
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Roy Stephens
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iNano78 wrote:

While having (seemingly irrelevant) keywords on STBG cards could lead to ambiguity, I think it's clear that the designer intended that "an Ensign" refers to the basic character titled "Ensign". Similarly, if Seven of Nine was added in an expansion and had a keyword mentioning a previous affiliation with the Borg, I think it would still be clear that "gain a Borg card" implies gaining a curse-like card titled "Borg", not a beneficial card from star base.


If the rule actually said Borg CARD or Ensign CARD, this would have never come up. laugh

But, I agree with you 100%. I understood the intent of the rule, however, the ambiguity of whether it was specifically referring to a Basic Ensign (yellowshirt) card or any character of the rank of Ensign could lead to disagreements at the table (I have seen some NASTY arguments come up at the table due to a liberal rule interpretation) and that is why I asked the question. In the spirit of the game, it makes no sense to gain a good card as a "penalty". But, by the letter of the law as it is written, it appeared to be legal.
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