Ciaran McCann
United Kingdom
Belfast
Nothern Ireland
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Howdy peeps,
For people who don't want to read all the guff I have given the questions and possible answers immediately and then expanded on my thoughts.
There seems to be 3 main queries;
1. Soviet Dominates Middle East. No they don't, on any edition board.
2. Position on Space Race. USSR either on 4, 5 or 6; US either on 6 or 8.
3. Victory conditions. Is it all normal conditions except for play of Wargames by US?
NB:
I have searched and read posts regarding this but they are at odds with each other.
I have not found any definitive answers to my queries so I am posting this hoping that people can answer these queries.
Point 1;
This has me baffled.
People say it is because the map changed in the deluxe edition.
I have checked the Middle East countries on 1st, 2nd and deluxe edition maps using vassal modules and images on BBG and they are exactly the same.
So the Soviets DO NOT dominate Middle East using the influence as given in ANY edition.
So SHOULD the Soviets dominate Middle East, and if so how, or was this an error from the start?
Point 2
There are eight boxes on the space race with the same effects but different names in different editions.
Rules in Deluxe say;
Soviets at 'Man in Earth Orbit'; US at 'Eagle has landed'.
On Deluxe map this is Soviets in box 4; US in box 6
On 1st/2nd Ed this is Soviets in box 5; US in box 8
So do the rules in deluxe refer to boxes on 1st ed map?
Some people say US in 'last' box and USSR behind them (ie in 7th box?)
Also the link on main TS page to the late war scenario rules, states Soviets on 'Space Walk' space which is 6th box on 1st ed map and is not on deluxe map?!?!
www.c3iopscenter.com/documents/A%20Short%20Scenario%20for%20...
Point 3
Rules say "...so the Soviet player in this scenario wins for just engineering a more graceful decline of the Socialist experiment."
What does this mean?
Are all normal victory conditions the same, ie if play Europe scoring card and control it then win, DEFCON 1, 20VP's.
If, after final scoring, US has say, 1 VP, do they win? (too many comas?!?!? )
1st Edition map;
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/99683/twilight-struggle
Deluxe Edition map;
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/1206894/twilight-struggle
Thanks for your replies in advance and hopefully we can get a definitive setup for this scenario for this brilliant game.
Na zdrovyeh 
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"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
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I emailed Volko (he's the scenario designer) long ago with pretty much all those questions, and to sum up...
Point 1 - ME is not Soviet dominated. That's an error.
Point 2 - the scenario rules were not updated for the Deluxe edition, so the US should be at the end of the space race and the Soviets one box behind
Point 3 - All normal ways of winning apply: get to 20VP at the end of any action round, blow up the world with DEFCON 1, control Europe and have Europe scoring arrive, etc.
It's only in FINAL SCORING that the special rules apply, i.e. the US must have 20+ VP or else the Soviets win.
I like the Late War Scenario because it's nice to see all those late war cards and it's a very short game.
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Ciaran McCann
United Kingdom
Belfast
Nothern Ireland
-
Hi leroy43,
Thanks for your reply.
Seems like the scenario was totally FUBAR (to use an expression from the era ) from the start.
I'm quite surprised at the answers especially point 3, so just to confirm!
Point 1. So this was ALWAYS an error!
Point 2. USSR in box 7, US in box 8, so different than in 1st/2nd edition, (USSR in 5, US in 8).
Is this to allow for other changes in deluxe edition, balancing etc?
Point 3. So US needs 20+ VP, if it goes to final scoring, even if they DO NOT play Wargames!!!
I also like the late war scenario for the same reasons and me and me missus are quite slow players, took us 3 hours to do this scenario, full game is usually spread over 2 nights at about 4 hours a night!!!! AP 
Cheers.
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"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
Who let this guy become wargame subdomain moderator anyways?
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Kihon wrote: Point 1. So this was ALWAYS an error! Yes.
Quote: Point 2. USSR in box 7, US in box 8, so different than in 1st/2nd edition, (USSR in 5, US in 8).
Is this to allow for other changes in deluxe edition, balancing etc? No, US in box 8, Soviets in box 7. Always.
Quote: Point 3. So US needs 20+ VP, if it goes to final scoring, even if they DO NOT play Wargames!!! Not sure I understand this one. Let me try again.
Normal ways to win TS:
- get to 20+ VP at the end of your action round (any time)
- your opponent triggers DEFCON 1
- you control Europe and Europe scoring is played
Scenario special rules:
- US cannot play Wargames (as an event) to win (the scenario rules are not especially clear in this instance)
- If the US does not win in one of the normal ways, they must end up with 20+ VP after Final Scoring to win.
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Ciaran McCann
United Kingdom
Belfast
Nothern Ireland
-
Hi again leroy43
It's amazing how the same words can mean different things to different people.
Point 1 - Sorted!!!
Point 2 - Don't see any rules which indicate box 7 for USSR, which is Lunar Orbit on 1st/2nd ed boards and Space Shuttle on deluxe board! Deluxe rules say Man in Earth Orbit, rules in link on TS main page say Space Walk?!?!
Point 3 - Sorted... except was gonna say this;
OK, got it, except for playing of wargames. My reading is that US can play it but must be at 20VP to do so.... but of course if US at 20VP then they would have won anyway 
Edit PS
If US controls Europe in final scoring do they win even if they don't accumulate 20VP's? 
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Mr. Blue
United States
California
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leroy43 wrote: Quote: Point 2. USSR in box 7, US in box 8, so different than in 1st/2nd edition, (USSR in 5, US in 8).
Is this to allow for other changes in deluxe edition, balancing etc? No, US in box 8, Soviets in box 7. Always.
As Ciaran observed, this answer does not square with the published rules -- original or revised. The rules say to place Soviets on "Man in Earth Orbit." That is Box 5 on the Original Board -- not Box 7 -- a full 3 spaces behind the US in the LWS Space Race. Was there an official "errata" from GMT about this changing the placement from 5 to 7 for the Soviets in the LWS Space Race?
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"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
Who let this guy become wargame subdomain moderator anyways?
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mrblueesq wrote: leroy43 wrote: Quote: Point 2. USSR in box 7, US in box 8, so different than in 1st/2nd edition, (USSR in 5, US in 8).
Is this to allow for other changes in deluxe edition, balancing etc? No, US in box 8, Soviets in box 7. Always. As Ciaran observed, this answer does not square with the published rules -- original or revised. The rules say to place Soviets on "Man in Earth Orbit." That is Box 5 on the Original Board -- not Box 7 -- a full 3 spaces behind the US in the LWS Space Race. Was there an official "errata" from GMT about this changing the placement from 5 to 7 for the Soviets in the LWS Space Race?
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Ciaran McCann
United Kingdom
Belfast
Nothern Ireland
-
Hi peeps
Had another go at this scenario and noticed a couple of other points.
Can Soviet player play WARGAMES to win even if the US has VP's but does not have 20VP's after the play of the card?
If during final scoring the score goes more than 20VP's do these count?
eg US scores sat 5 VP's while at 18 VP's then USSR scores 5 VP's what is the US player VP now, 15 or 18?
Also is there supposed to be any influence placed in Canada?
Cheers
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"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
Who let this guy become wargame subdomain moderator anyways?
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Re Wargames - no. Normal win conditions apply except as notes in the scenario rules, so wargames played as described by the soviets is a US win.
Final scoring requires that all regions be scored, so you don't determine a winner until the net final score.
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Ciaran McCann
United Kingdom
Belfast
Nothern Ireland
-
Hi leroy43
Ah, yes, I see now how the final scoring works, thanks.
We were scoring each region individually and applying the VP's to the track before scoring the next region.
And the Wargames question, so because if USSR plays Wargames then the game hasn't reached final scoring so US DON'T need 20 VP's to win and will therefore win if they have any VP's, yes?
If VP track was at 0 after this happened would you consider it a tie or a moral victory for the USSR 
Thanks for your replies
Cheers
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"L'état, c'est moi."
Canada
Vancouver
BC
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
Who let this guy become wargame subdomain moderator anyways?
-
Correct on the Wargames.
And as for the 0 score, that would be indeed a tie (by rule) and definitely a moral victory! 
I've had one tie ever in a game of TS. And never in the LWS, which I've played relatively seldom. Glad to see someone is having fun with it!
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